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Winter Gear

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    • Winter Gear

      In some other thread I mentioned my sleeping pad dilemma.
      My old, ThermaRest developed a leak and I either need to find and patch the leak, or replace the pad.
      Replacing it provides me with the opportunity to go lighter and smaller.
      If I do that I'll need a second pad to use in the cold weather.
      That means I'll be buying 2 pads and have more "stuff" to store.
      I'm not sure yet which way I'm gonna go, but let me ask a question.
      It seems the insulated pads have an R-rating to give an idea of how well they will insulate you from the cold ground.
      The problem is I have no idea how much R is needed for a cold sleeper to keep from getting chilled by the ground in the dead of winter.
      Anybody have an info about this???
      All ideas and web links are invited, to educate me.

    • I found a ton of info about this subject over at the
      WinterCampers site


      " Pads are rated by R-value, the measurement of insulation, ranging between 1.0 and 8.0. The higher the R-value, the better it insulates. A closed-cell foam pad is a thin, dense foam made of closed-air cells that block water and stop air circulation. Self-inflating pads are a combination of open- and closed-cell foam. Open-cell foam pads have open-air cells that absorb air and create more cushioning. Inflatable pads provide superior comfort but you can get cold spots where hips or shoulders compress the pad. Closed cell pad provide superior insulation but don’t provide much cushion.

      Another alternative is to use a down filled sleeping pad such as Exped’s Downmat 9 which has an R-value of about seven. A Downmat more than equals two regular pads-a self-inflating and a closed-cell pairing-in insulation. While I’ve never used a down-filled pad, I am told they are very comfortable. Weight-wise a Downmat 9 weighs two pounds, while the two Therm-a-Rest pads will end up at three pounds six ounces.

      Typically I use a combination of a closed-cell pad and an inflatable Therm-a-Rest pad. The closed cell pad has a R-value of about 2.6 and the Therm-a-Rest has an R-value of about 3 for a total of 5.6. "



      Does that ring true with your experiences?

    • Personally I always carry two pads during the winter. I've had my inflatable leak and deflate on me twice over the years, once during a subzero night in the whites. If I hadn't had a foam pad underneath it to provide additional insulation the flattened inflatable pad would have left me SOL. I use thermarest z-rest foam pad which I highly recommend along with an old inflatable. Just some food for thought, but this is a rare case where I would vote storing more stuff.
      Dogs are excellent judges of character, this fact goes a long way toward explaining why some people don't like being around them.

    • Elf and I are on the same page with this one. You need two pads in the winter, and at least one of them has to be closed-cell foam so that it can't deflate. I use the same Therm-a-Rest that I do in the summer (it's a full-length pad) with a blue foam from XYZ-Mart underneath. If I'm really paranoid I'll put an auto sunscreen in between.
      I'm not lost. I know where I am. I'm right here.

    • I'm with you guys on the 2 pad set up for winter. That is the only way I'd go if I was a diehard winter hiker. I have a Thermarest inflatable that I use exclusively in AL and FL. It's rated at 4.0. I've seen it rated at one place at 4.8 but all others have rated it at 4.0 so that's what I assume. I have a Thermarest SOlite that's rated at 2.8. Whether or not that gives me a 6.8 combination rating I don't know. The inflatable is very heavy by UL standards 1lb 8oz. The SOlite is 13oz. So just over 2¼lbs. I think it's safe to say that if you're gonna hike in the winter and you want to be comfortable (and safe) you're gonna have to carry a little more weight.
      Changes Daily→ ♪♫♪♫♪♫♪♫ ♪♫♪♫♪♫ ← Don't blame me. It's That Lonesome Guitar.

    • i'm the worst person here to give advice on winter backpacking, but i have read so many people rave about the down exped mats that i would certainly research them if i was stuck in the frigid north. i'd be interested to learn from some of the yankees here why they "don't" have one of these mats.
      2,000 miler

    • If I had spare change to get just a winter pad it would also be the down exped. But I can get by on what I use. I put an inflatable down first and my ccf on top. And some trips just the ccf, ridgerest goes with me. Luckily it doesn't hardly drop to far below15* where I live.

    • max.patch wrote:

      i'm the worst person here to give advice on winter backpacking, but i have read so many people rave about the down exped mats that i would certainly research them if i was stuck in the frigid north. i'd be interested to learn from some of the yankees here why they "don't" have one of these mats.


      Mostly because I can't justify spending money on a winter pad when the two pad system works fine for me. Besides, I'd still bring the foam pad no matter what kind of inflatable I used.

      Tipi Walter mentioned on TOS that he had some trouble with the exped downmat, I think he said that the internal baffles on his failed. If I remember to, I'll try to find his post and link it here later.

      Edit, links are below:
      http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/101376-Outside-Your-Circle-of-Trust

      whiteblaze.net/forum/showthrea…-Days-in-the-Polar-Vortex

      Dogs are excellent judges of character, this fact goes a long way toward explaining why some people don't like being around them.

    • SarcasmTheElf wrote:

      max.patch wrote:

      i'm the worst person here to give advice on winter backpacking, but i have read so many people rave about the down exped mats that i would certainly research them if i was stuck in the frigid north. i'd be interested to learn from some of the yankees here why they "don't" have one of these mats.


      Mostly because I can't justify spending money on a winter pad when the two pad system works fine for me. Besides, I'd still bring the foam pad no matter what kind of inflatable I used.

      Tipi Walter mentioned on TOS that he had some trouble with the exped downmat, I think he said that the internal baffles on his failed. If I remember to, I'll try to find his post and link it here later.

      Edit, links are below:
      whiteblaze.net/forum/showthrea…side-Your-Circle-of-Trust

      whiteblaze.net/forum/showthrea…-Days-in-the-Polar-Vortex



      good to know the company sent him a replacement. although that didn't help any at the time. big question is what does he use now? back to the exped or to something that can't fail?

      loved the picture of the bear vault.
      2,000 miler

    • SarcasmTheElf wrote:

      Personally I always carry two pads during the winter. I've had my inflatable leak and deflate on me twice over the years, once during a subzero night in the whites. If I hadn't had a foam pad underneath it to provide additional insulation the flattened inflatable pad would have left me SOL. I use thermarest z-rest foam pad which I highly recommend along with an old inflatable. Just some food for thought, but this is a rare case where I would vote storing more stuff.


      Same here Dave! I only have a 1/3 piece that Oz gave me in NH. I use it as a camp/ lunch seat and it goes under my neo torso area.
      Cheesecake> Ramen :thumbsup:

    • As with Elf and AK, I use two pads for winter backpacking. I steal my Mrs Mags' NeoAir (3/4 length) and use my Z-Lite.

      The R value is roughly 5+ so it works well.

      The other advantage of a foam pad, esp in winter, is that it is good kneeling on while setting up a stove, using as a seat on top of snow furniture and generally keeping you from getting too wet on the snow while in camp. I would NOT trust an inflatable for that type of use.

      On the winter backpacking trip I assist on, it is funny how everyone seems to steal my foam pad...including this well known backpacker with the initials of AS. ;)

      [IMG:https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8517/8533291108_0698e8c3dc.jpg]

      Note he is using my dirt bag stove platform as well! (Foam with oven liner wrapped around it)

      The post was edited 1 time, last by PaulMags ().

    • I think I've mentioned somewhere before that I'm toying with the idea of a winter sleeping bag to replace using 2 bags in the cold weather.
      My 3 season bag is a Montbell and I'm totally happy with that. It's rated at 25 degrees F and keeps me warm into the 20 with no problem.
      Based on that experience I was considering the Montbell Expedition bag rated at -25 degrees F. I was also considering the Western Mountaneering Puma, which is rated at -25 degrees F. Browsing the internet for deals I found a really good price on the Montbell, but before pulling the trigger on it I decided to look at the Montbell web site 1 more time. I was disappointed to see the results for the EN testing for this bag. The comfort rating was at 23 degrees F, the lower limit rating at 11 degrees F and the extreme rating at -24 degrees F. I'm having second and third thoughts about buying.
      Then I went to look at the Western Mountaineering web site to see if I could find similar info on the Puma. I don't see any EN ratings listed, but maybe they are on some obscure page. Anybody know if they do this testing? And if so where do I find the results?

      • OK, I've got my 2 pad system squared away with a NeoAir All Season and a ZRest foam pad.
      • I'd like to have a winter sleeping bag but have a hard time justifying, in my own head, a bag that is 800 or 900 dollars as I usually get out for only a few nights per winter.
      • I've seen the LL Bean winter bag and it fits OK and seems to have good reviews. And is a bit more than 1/2 the price of a Western Mountaineering or Feathered Friends bag.
      • Now I've discovered the Big Agnes Crosho SL -20. It's in the same price and weight range as the LL Bean bag. Anybody have any info on this bag, or on Big Agnes sleeping bags in general?

    • BA bags have no insulation on the bottom. They have a channel where your sleeping pad goes.

      Doesn't work for me. I roll around too much.

      Right now my compromise is a 0 degree bag. I have a Marmot Never Summer that I got on a spring closeout. it was less than $300 on closeout. Using the usual tricks (wear a baselayer or even fleeces, throw the jacket on top of the bag over your core, wear tuque and gloves and socks, throw in a chemical body warmer ...) I've had it out to -10 or so and been reasonably comfortable.
      I'm not lost. I know where I am. I'm right here.

    • AnotherKevin wrote:

      BA bags have no insulation on the bottom. They have a channel where your sleeping pad goes.

      Doesn't work for me. I roll around too much.

      Right now my compromise is a 0 degree bag. I have a Marmot Never Summer that I got on a spring closeout. it was less than $300 on closeout. Using the usual tricks (wear a baselayer or even fleeces, throw the jacket on top of the bag over your core, wear tuque and gloves and socks, throw in a chemical body warmer ...) I've had it out to -10 or so and been reasonably comfortable.
      The sleeping pad sleeve has helped with my rolling around. This summer I used my 40* Kelty and it drove me batty...I kept rolling off the pad.
      Lost in the right direction.

    • LIhikers wrote:


      • OK, I've got my 2 pad system squared away with a NeoAir All Season and a ZRest foam pad.
      • I'd like to have a winter sleeping bag but have a hard time justifying, in my own head, a bag that is 800 or 900 dollars as I usually get out for only a few nights per winter.
      • I've seen the LL Bean winter bag and it fits OK and seems to have good reviews. And is a bit more than 1/2 the price of a Western Mountaineering or Feathered Friends bag.
      • Now I've discovered the Big Agnes Crosho SL -20. It's in the same price and weight range as the LL Bean bag. Anybody have any info on this bag, or on Big Agnes sleeping bags in general?

      I vote for you buying the WM bag. You've been wanting it for a long time. Consider it an investment. It will encourage you to get out more in winter so that you get your money's worth. Kathy can use it also if she hikes without you. You can probably resell it 10 years from now for at least half of what it costs, IMO. Come on, you know you want that bag!
      Lost in the right direction.

    • TrafficJam wrote:

      LIhikers wrote:


      • OK, I've got my 2 pad system squared away with a NeoAir All Season and a ZRest foam pad.
      • I'd like to have a winter sleeping bag but have a hard time justifying, in my own head, a bag that is 800 or 900 dollars as I usually get out for only a few nights per winter.
      • I've seen the LL Bean winter bag and it fits OK and seems to have good reviews. And is a bit more than 1/2 the price of a Western Mountaineering or Feathered Friends bag.
      • Now I've discovered the Big Agnes Crosho SL -20. It's in the same price and weight range as the LL Bean bag. Anybody have any info on this bag, or on Big Agnes sleeping bags in general?

      I vote for you buying the WM bag. You've been wanting it for a long time. Consider it an investment. It will encourage you to get out more in winter so that you get your money's worth. Kathy can use it also if she hikes without you. You can probably resell it 10 years from now for at least half of what it costs, IMO. Come on, you know you want that bag!
      I had a salesman tell me something many years ago that stuck, and I don't normally listen well to salesmen, I was buying a piece of equipment, around $500,000, and was getting quotes, was leaning toward a German machine when the guy selling machines made in NC said....you're looking at the price now, but six months from now you will have forgotten what you paid for the machine but you'll still have to live with it every day.....I kind of developed my personal buying around that going forward and cant say it's done me wrong when I apply it.
      I may grow old but I'll never grow up.

    • Just to put of in perspective, my buddy summited Ama Dablom, the 22,300ft mountain that is six miles away from Everest using a synthetic -20f degree EMS bag that he got on clearance for less than $200, it wasn't light but the S.O.B. is one warm bag. I've since borrowed it for a hike in the Whites. If I ever come across a bag like that for a similar price, I'm buying it on the spot.
      Dogs are excellent judges of character, this fact goes a long way toward explaining why some people don't like being around them.

    • TrafficJam wrote:

      JimBlue wrote:

      I have a blue closed cell that is slightly shrter than I am. So I probably need to get a longer one. My feet are cold in the winter enough, without adding to it when sleeping on the ground. I think in cold weather, a hammock would not be workable.
      You could put your pack at the bottom of your pad for your feet.

      Pad is 6' long and I'm 6' 2" tall... but that would save me from buying another pad. Thanks !
      --
      "What do you mean its sunrise already ?!", me.

    • SandyofPA wrote:

      Will you think of the money saved, when you discover the rating was for survival not comfort? My cold weather bag is Western Mountaineering even though I use homemade quilts down to thirty degrees. For real cold I want the best that money can buy!

      Crazy Crow Trading Post, Buffalo robes... unfortunately the cost is about $800 when they are on sale. 40-45 square feet, weighs 20 pounds.

      crazycrow.com/mm5/merchant.mvc…t=&range_low=&range_high=

      My sister has a quilt loom thing. We have around 50 yards of cloth. I could make a few quilts for winter camping.
      --
      "What do you mean its sunrise already ?!", me.

    • TrafficJam wrote:

      LIhikers wrote:


      • OK, I've got my 2 pad system squared away with a NeoAir All Season and a ZRest foam pad.
      • I'd like to have a winter sleeping bag but have a hard time justifying, in my own head, a bag that is 800 or 900 dollars as I usually get out for only a few nights per winter.
      • I've seen the LL Bean winter bag and it fits OK and seems to have good reviews. And is a bit more than 1/2 the price of a Western Mountaineering or Feathered Friends bag.
      • Now I've discovered the Big Agnes Crosho SL -20. It's in the same price and weight range as the LL Bean bag. Anybody have any info on this bag, or on Big Agnes sleeping bags in general?

      I vote for you buying the WM bag. You've been wanting it for a long time. Consider it an investment. It will encourage you to get out more in winter so that you get your money's worth. Kathy can use it also if she hikes without you. You can probably resell it 10 years from now for at least half of what it costs, IMO. Come on, you know you want that bag!
      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ what she said!
      Cheesecake> Ramen :thumbsup:

    • JimBlue wrote:

      SandyofPA wrote:

      Will you think of the money saved, when you discover the rating was for survival not comfort? My cold weather bag is Western Mountaineering even though I use homemade quilts down to thirty degrees. For real cold I want the best that money can buy!
      Crazy Crow Trading Post, Buffalo robes... unfortunately the cost is about $800 when they are on sale. 40-45 square feet, weighs 20 pounds.

      crazycrow.com/mm5/merchant.mvc…t=&range_low=&range_high=

      My sister has a quilt loom thing. We have around 50 yards of cloth. I could make a few quilts for winter camping.
      Sandy makes Down quilts which is different from traditional quilts. :)

      A traditional quilt would likely be too heavy to carry but I would take one car camping. A good way to save money is to DIY and we have several experts here.
      Lost in the right direction.

    • I realize quilts differ. My mother and both sisters have made blankets and quilts. In some ways my family is rather more frontier type than city type. I can sew, chop wood safely, make a fire with one match. But not skin an animal.

      I'm more concerned about getting a doctor's appointment and talking about my diabeties and how that is going to affect me hiking.
      --
      "What do you mean its sunrise already ?!", me.