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How do we assess "experience"?

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    • How do we assess "experience"?

      The unfortunate death of a hiker in the White Mountains made me ponder the title "experienced hiker".
      The news reports of the tragedy described the deceased as an "experienced hiker". This simple description seems to satisfy many (the press at least) that it was not a case of a foolhardy misadventure, but more of an unfortunate accident.
      But at what point do we call someone experienced? I have over 5000km of hiking in the last 3 years and I would think that in a similar circumstance the same title would be bestowed upon me. But for a true winter hike my experience is zip. Nada.
      Similarly a German hiker was recently walking the Bibbulmun Track in the middle of our summer. He has hiking experience from all over the world but I became aware of him because a local hiker on a local forum described rescuing him at a hut, suffering severe dehydration and without his pack which he had dumped a few hours earlier. He was clearly not experienced with our summer. If he had been he wouldn't have been here to begin with. Summer is not hiking season here.
      So I ask for suggestions on what constitutes "experience"? For me, I have to say that it is something that only applies to what you have done and if what you are about to do is new to you, you should acknowledge your lack of experience and not allow any complacency into your plans. Too often we are caught out by our own egos assuming we know what we're doing.
      Resident Australian, proving being a grumpy old man is not just an American trait.

    • I think it's relative, as in pretty much everyone here is experienced compared to my 57 or 58 steps of hiking, but even I could teach a full on noob a couple of useful things.

      It's also conditional or situational (locational?) as you pointed out. Years and miles of experience in one region (or even exclusively on one trail) may not help you for squat in a vastly different area, other than knowing how to load your pack/set up camp, etc. Same with the difference between hiking solely on marked trails vs. bushwhacking and navigating.
      Do your duty in all things. You cannot do more, you should never wish to do less. - Robert E. Lee

    • I got into a similar discussion 6 years ago with an executive while on a 45 minute drive so we explored this. He and his family with two children lived near the Brandywine Creek in Chadds Ford. He said it was too dangerous for the family to canoe the Brandywine as there have been deaths along the trip from Northbrook to route one. I gave him something to ponder - I said first you teach them to swim at the YMCA, then you join a Canoe Club and they give you a white water certification course, Such as the Wilmington Trail Club did in the past. Then you go out as a group on several trips and build confidence.. then you stop worrying about it. You learn to get yourself out of trouble... Having been down the Brandywine too many times I run all the dam's and rapids... no worries.

      You have to study and practice to get a licence to drive a car - much the same thing...

      Take a NOLS course or two.
      Be wise enough to walk away from the nonsense around you! :thumbup:

    • Resume's listing training, certifications, and experience appropriate to the proposed activity are often used in risky activities. But I believe that is all about mitigating lawsuits ...

      Getting a permit to climb Denali is a really good example, if an extreme one, of just how far the government goes to protect resources, and to minimize risk. Part of the process is a requirement to certify that one has read their mountaineering booklet, and to provide details on their climbing history:
      pay.gov/public/form/entry/101/

      The NPS lists what they see as ample experience to climb Denali:
      nps.gov/dena/planyourvisit/mountainfaqs.htm#experience

      But the bottom line is surprising to me. From Newsminer.com"

      "The form for solo climbers goes into even more detail, asking the applicant to describe his equipment and his reasons for wanting to climb alone. But even if there are gaps on the climber’s resume, there’s not much the Park Service can do. “We’re not allowed to deny anybody based on experience level,” Leonard said, “so our only tool to try to limit potential problems is through education. … It’s trying to deal with a problem before it happens. “We may in some cases recommend that they go and talk to one of our guiding concessionaires so they have some help for their trip. We may try to get them to go with a partner.”

      newsminer.com/climbing-denali-…15-a504-850ada729a6c.html
      -
      L.Dog
      AT 2000 Mile LASHer '12-'15

    • TrafficJam wrote:

      My lack of experience makes me very cautious.


      There are a pile of people that lack experience, but are not cautious. I would contend that it is not your experience level that makes you cautious. You are cautious because you are wise. I will let others assign attributes to people who are not cautious regardless of their experience level.
      Non hikers are about a psi shy of a legal ball.

    • Da Wolf wrote:

      the woman that died in the whites wasn't "experienced". she tried to do a day hike over mt. washington without proper gear


      actually it wasnt her first trip into the whites, she had solo hiked the whites in winter before.its more likely she didnt have the most up to date forecast when she left at 5am. a low pressure system had moved farther to the south than originally anticipated, which changed the direction and severity of wind speed.its very possible she never heard the revised forecast, and thought she was capable.once she got above treeline,she probably realized her error, but could not fight the winds to go back.
      its all good

    • I believe that we make the greatest strides in our abilities when we push ourselves beyond our comfort zone. Not being experienced with something doesn't mean we shouldn't try it. However, a person must have a healthy knowledge of their capabilities and know their comfort zone. That is not the same as being foolhardy and isn't meant to be a comment on the poor decision-making in the recent hiking death.

      For me, moving out of my comfort zone is a very slow process...I have to work up to it and make myself do it. I have a very narrow comfort zone so the things I'm talking about are just baby steps for most of ya'll. Really, I barely step out of my comfort zone, I just stick a toe out occasionally to test the waters...or rather the mud...then jump back in. :)
      Lost in the right direction.

    • hikerboy wrote:

      Da Wolf wrote:

      the woman that died in the whites wasn't "experienced". she tried to do a day hike over mt. washington without proper gear


      actually it wasnt her first trip into the whites, she had solo hiked the whites in winter before.its more likely she didnt have the most up to date forecast when she left at 5am. a low pressure system had moved farther to the south than originally anticipated, which changed the direction and severity of wind speed.its very possible she never heard the revised forecast, and thought she was capable.once she got above treeline,she probably realized her error, but could not fight the winds to go back.


      No shelter + no sleeping bag + mid winter = no experience
      Sometimes you will never know the value of a moment until it becomes a memory.
      Dr. Seuss Cof123

    • Rasty wrote:

      hikerboy wrote:

      Da Wolf wrote:

      the woman that died in the whites wasn't "experienced". she tried to do a day hike over mt. washington without proper gear


      actually it wasnt her first trip into the whites, she had solo hiked the whites in winter before.its more likely she didnt have the most up to date forecast when she left at 5am. a low pressure system had moved farther to the south than originally anticipated, which changed the direction and severity of wind speed.its very possible she never heard the revised forecast, and thought she was capable.once she got above treeline,she probably realized her error, but could not fight the winds to go back.


      No shelter + no sleeping bag + mid winter = no experience


      i dont remember reading that.
      webpronews.com/kate-matrosova-…-in-new-hampshire-2015-02
      its all good

    • hikerboy wrote:

      Rasty wrote:

      hikerboy wrote:

      Da Wolf wrote:

      the woman that died in the whites wasn't "experienced". she tried to do a day hike over mt. washington without proper gear


      actually it wasnt her first trip into the whites, she had solo hiked the whites in winter before.its more likely she didnt have the most up to date forecast when she left at 5am. a low pressure system had moved farther to the south than originally anticipated, which changed the direction and severity of wind speed.its very possible she never heard the revised forecast, and thought she was capable.once she got above treeline,she probably realized her error, but could not fight the winds to go back.


      No shelter + no sleeping bag + mid winter = no experience


      i dont remember reading that.
      webpronews.com/kate-matrosova-…-in-new-hampshire-2015-02


      It was in one of the articles you posted. A simple bivy sack and sleeping bag maybe could have made a difference in the outcome.
      Sometimes you will never know the value of a moment until it becomes a memory.
      Dr. Seuss Cof123

    • AnotherKevin wrote:

      I didn't see anywhere whether she had a snow shovel, or even a mountaineering ice axe? Being able to dig in can make the difference between life and death in deep cold.


      still waiting for more details about what equipment she did and did not have.those details have been rather sketchy maybe in time, her husband can elaborate.
      dealing with hurricane force winds, unless you can get out of the wind somehow, are almost impossible conditions to build a snow cave in.and chances are, she probably attempted to do exactly that. i would imagine ice axe and crampons would have to have been with her, as a few articles stated she'd done solo winter hikes in the whites before.
      its all good

    • In an environment as harsh as New Hampshire in winter, 'experience' is a pretty good surrogate for 'wisdom.' Anyone who's done it a bunch of times has learnt both some skills and some prudence. The fools die, or get beaten so hard they don't come back.

      Although in a few cases, 'experienced' merely means 'unreasonably lucky.'
      I'm not lost. I know where I am. I'm right here.

    • Rasty wrote:

      The only equipment related information I saw was she didn't have any type of shelter.


      There is a huge shelter between Adams and Madison. All you have to do is go to the lowest point between the two. That is the part I don't get. There has to be something I am missing. I have not read all the stories, but wasn't she found in that area? The hut is not hard to find. I am pretty sure I could find it blindfolded if I was in that area. It is directly between the two hills. I would likely fall 10,000 tmes, but I would find it. Again, I must be missing something. I mean no disrespect. I am too much of a wimp to hike in the winter, let alone in bad conditions in the winter. I just can't get that thought out of my head. If I was there and in trouble, I would have just one thought on my mind; I have to get in that hut or I am going to die.
      Non hikers are about a psi shy of a legal ball.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by BirdBrain ().

    • BirdBrain wrote:

      Rasty wrote:

      The only equipment related information I saw was she didn't have any type of shelter.


      There is a huge shelter between Adams and Madison. All you have to do is go to the lowest point between the two. That is the part I don't get. There has to be something I am missing. I have not read all the stories, but wasn't she found in that area? The hut is not hard to find. I am pretty sure I could find it blindfolded if I was in that area. It is directly between the two hills. I would likely fall 10,000 tmes, but I would find it. Again, I must be missing something. I mean no disrespect. I am too much of a wimp to hike in the winter, let alone in bad conditions in the winter. I just can't get that thought out of my head. If I was there and in trouble, I would have just one thought on my mind; I have to get in that hut or I am going to die.
      Well that's kinda what I'm wondering, if maybe she broke a leg or something that didn't allow her her move forward...all in time the story will be told

    • BirdBrain wrote:

      Rasty wrote:

      The only equipment related information I saw was she didn't have any type of shelter.


      There is a huge shelter between Adams and Madison. All you have to do is go to the lowest point between the two. That is the part I don't get. There has to be something I am missing. I have not read all the stories, but wasn't she found in that area? The hut is not hard to find. I am pretty sure I could find it blindfolded if I was in that area. It is directly between the two hills. I would likely fall 10,000 tmes, but I would find it. Again, I must be missing something. I mean no disrespect. I am too much of a wimp to hike in the winter, let alone in bad conditions in the winter. I just can't get that thought out of my head. If I was there and in trouble, I would have just one thought on my mind; I have to get in that hut or I am going to die.


      if you're talking about madison hut, its locked tight.she had gone past the hut and was found near star lake. once she was past the hut, the wind would have prevented her from going back.
      its all good

    • TrafficJam wrote:

      I believe that we make the greatest strides in our abilities when we push ourselves beyond our comfort zone. Not being experienced with something doesn't mean we shouldn't try it. However, a person must have a healthy knowledge of their capabilities and know their comfort zone. That is not the same as being foolhardy and isn't meant to be a comment on the poor decision-making in the recent hiking death.

      For me, moving out of my comfort zone is a very slow process...I have to work up to it and make myself do it. I have a very narrow comfort zone so the things I'm talking about are just baby steps for most of ya'll. Really, I barely step out of my comfort zone, I just stick a toe out occasionally to test the waters...or rather the mud...then jump back in. :)




      Maybe we should call you ToeDipper? :)
      "Dazed and Confused"
      Recycle, re-use, re-purpose
      Plant a tree
      Take a kid hiking
      Make a difference

    • jimmyjam wrote:

      TrafficJam wrote:

      I believe that we make the greatest strides in our abilities when we push ourselves beyond our comfort zone. Not being experienced with something doesn't mean we shouldn't try it. However, a person must have a healthy knowledge of their capabilities and know their comfort zone. That is not the same as being foolhardy and isn't meant to be a comment on the poor decision-making in the recent hiking death.

      For me, moving out of my comfort zone is a very slow process...I have to work up to it and make myself do it. I have a very narrow comfort zone so the things I'm talking about are just baby steps for most of ya'll. Really, I barely step out of my comfort zone, I just stick a toe out occasionally to test the waters...or rather the mud...then jump back in. :)




      Maybe we should call you ToeDipper? :)


      That is a great trail name!
      Lost in the right direction.

    • hikerboy wrote:



      if you're talking about madison hut, its locked tight.she had gone past the hut and was found near star lake. once she was past the hut, the wind would have prevented her from going back.


      I am referring to Madison Hut. I understand that she would have to do damage to get in. If memory serves, the climb over Madison is much more difficult than the walk to Star Lake. I feel a fool second guessing her. I am sure she didn't choose this end. I just doesn't add up in my mind. There is something missing. My curiosity is unimportant. It just should not have happened. The walk from Star Lake is not that tough. In that weather everything is tough. Madison is way more tough that the walk back to the hut. The wind is rediculous on Madison.
      Non hikers are about a psi shy of a legal ball.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by BirdBrain ().

    • BirdBrain wrote:

      hikerboy wrote:



      if you're talking about madison hut, its locked tight.she had gone past the hut and was found near star lake. once she was past the hut, the wind would have prevented her from going back.


      I am referring to Madison Hut. I understand that she would have to do damage to get in. If memory serves, the climb over Madison is much more difficult than the walk to Star Lake. I feel a fool second guessing her. I am sure she didn't choose this end. I just doesn't add up in my mind. There is something missing. My curiosity is unimportant. It just should not have happened. The walk from Star Lake is not that tough. In that weather everything is tough. Madison is way more tough that the walk back to the hut. The wind is rediculous on Madison.


      She looked to be about 125 to 135 pounds from the picture. That weight in 100 mph wind doesn't stand a chance.
      Sometimes you will never know the value of a moment until it becomes a memory.
      Dr. Seuss Cof123

    • hikerboy wrote:

      bb the wind was coming in from the nw.she would have had a difficult time, if not impossible to get back to the hut from star lake.


      I understand. It is shocking that she made it to the top of Madison. I can't imagine what she faced up there. When I was there, the wind was only about 40mph. I had a hard time walking in some spots. When I got to the hut, the wind was almost gone. Wind direction was obviously much different on my walk.

      Just researched it in case my memory was screwed up. Star Lake is a little over 1000' from Madison Hut with little elevation change. I am not debating anything here. My comments are by definition ignorant. I just does not make sense that she could climb over Madison and not navigate 1/4 mile on relatively flat terrain back to the hut. The winds had to be worse on Madison. She faced them in 2 directions as she went up and back down. She would have passed the hut twice and then died a little over 1000' from a hut she passed.

      Okay... I am done being stupid.... on this subject.
      Non hikers are about a psi shy of a legal ball.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by BirdBrain ().

    • She was intentionally travelling light so I can get that she didn't have everything, but one of the better reports said that initially she was on a trail that had been hiked less than 2 days before and had compacted snow so was able to move well (she did get a fair way quickly by the looks of things). She then came out onto uncompacted snow. Without snow shoes I imagine she was slowed enormously and quickly physically drained from the effort of moving. Fair to assume she thought it was shorter going forward to a bug out on a side trail than all the way back (into the wind as HB pointed out).
      As I have said before, terribly tragic and avoidable at so many points.
      I can't help but wonder if she would have turned around sooner without a PLB.
      Resident Australian, proving being a grumpy old man is not just an American trait.

    • In the winter, the closed AMC huts have windows and doors covered with 3/4 inch pressure treated plywood. The plywood is bolted on with 3/8 inch through-the-wall bolts that have the external nuts locked in place with 1/8 inch set screws drilled and tapped into the side of the nuts. About the only way into a door or window would be with an ax, and I don;t mean ice ax, they would be too light to make much progress. When I interned with the AMC in the early 80s we carried headlamps, and 1/8 inch Allen wrenches as part of our "Hut Opening Kits" during Springtime opening operations. When you entered the huts that were sealed, it was totally dark until the windows were uncovered. (explaining the day time use of headlamps)

      The huts do get broken into, but rarely. They used to get checked once a week in the winter.

      Rather than try to use Madison hut as a wind break she might have moved down wind in an attempt to find deep enough snow to try to shelter.

      The area around the hut is a wind tunnel where the snow is scoured off the rock by the wind. Any drifts around the hut are heavily wind packed and are hard as concrete. However, as you move downwind deeper snow that is not as compacted can be found. How far is variable. I still have an old snow saw from my younger, more adventurous days.