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OK lets have a "little" fun what do you know about VBL?

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    • OK lets have a "little" fun what do you know about VBL?

      No tags - just opinion, forget sciences. I understand I am surrounded on this site with some smart folk! We are in the cold season. What can we share as a group about VBL in our backpack and what are you using this for... I have a couple of ideas that I will pepper the tread and I will respectfully ask we stay on topic.


      Can I ask for some help for a winning thread?
      Thanks ahead, Woo
      Be wise enough to walk away from the nonsense around you! :thumbup:

    • muddywaters wrote:

      I knows most of what Andy Skurka has written about.
      Innovative $hit like wearing vbl under down puffys when hiking in cold
      Using full body vbl clothing to preserve down loft on multi week extended winter trips
      Etc
      He is a smart an interesting guy. Fun to read about, but he does a lot of stuff I do not believe I will be trying anytime soon.
      The road to glory cannot be followed with much baggage.
      Richard Ewell, CSA General

    • VBL or Vapor Barriers, Yes they are in my pack I use a 20 gallon inside my pack to keep my stuff dry. from time to time I have carried plastic sheet - the $1 poncho. When it gets really cold, I add the sheet below my legs and buttocks in the hammock when there is wind. I have also tossed both feet into the 20 gallon to improve cold performance. Other than that, what else can be done?
      Be wise enough to walk away from the nonsense around you! :thumbup:

    • muddywaters wrote:

      I knows most of what Andy Skurka has written about.
      Innovative $hit like wearing vbl under down puffys when hiking in cold
      Using full body vbl clothing to preserve down loft on multi week extended winter trips
      Etc
      Thank's for the reminder, I am on his blog site right now.

      [IMG:http://cdn.andrewskurka.com/wp-content/uploads/blackbird-xlc-hammock-sans-netting-615x463.jpg]
      Be wise enough to walk away from the nonsense around you! :thumbup:

    • Source

      "multi-day outings in frigid temperatures" He goes on to write "It was my first serious winter experience, and a problem that became immediately clear was that my clothing and sleeping system failed to adequately manage perspiration. For example, my sleeping bag (a top-of-the-line model rated to -5 F with premium 850-fill down) would become more damp—and less lofty—with each long night curled up in it. My running shoes and Forty Below Light Energy overboots were frozen stiff each morning due to trapped foot-sweat from the days before. And sometimes I would perspire so much at night—without noticing it—that my clothes would steam when I emerged from my sleeping bag in the morning."




      First, perspiration will not reach outer layers like a windshirt, insulated parka, or sleeping bag. This is hugely important because in cold conditions your perspiration will often stay in these layers: the dew point is somewhere between your body and the outside atmosphere, and your perspiration will condense from water vapor into actual water, thus wetting the layers. This will cause down and synthetic insulations to ultimately collapse. And it will cause unwanted evaporative heat loss with other fibers like polyester, nylon, and wool.

      Second, the wearer is always keenly aware of their rate of perspiration, and they are better able to thermoregulate properly as a result. Without a VBL, you might begin to overheat and sweat profusely without fully realizing it. This will soak layers and cause dehydration, which will lead to poorer circulation and lower respiratory efficiency; you may also waste more time and fuel melting snow to get water. With a VBL, however, this scenario is far less likely to happen: you will notice the rainforest-like humidity level in the microclimate—or, if you really overdo it, the sweat dripping down your back—and you will react by removing layers or increasing ventilation.

      Finally, evaporative heat loss is minimized. All forms of heat loss should be carefully managed in cold conditions, and a VBL is an effective way in which to manage evaporative heat loss. (The other types of heat loss are conduction, convective, and radiation.) To illustrate this point, imagine how it feels to work up a sweat while snowshoeing up a mountain and then resting for a few minutes at the cold, windswept summit. Brr…
      Be wise enough to walk away from the nonsense around you! :thumbup:

    • A VBL is supposed to prevent excessive moisture loss by making the person more aware of their perspiration and cueing them to regulate their temperature more effectively. So.....what about ladies who are experiencing night sweats and hot flashes and are unable to control perspiration? Is it okay to lay in a sweat-soaked liner?
      Lost in the right direction.

    • muddywaters wrote:

      I knows most of what Andy Skurka has written about.
      Innovative $hit like wearing vbl under down puffys when hiking in cold
      Using full body vbl clothing to preserve down loft on multi week extended winter trips
      Etc
      Yes I read that too. Can't say I understand all of it. But I'm with Max. If it's that cold, I'm staying home. If I used it at all, I'd probably just stick with the feet trick.

    • odd man out wrote:

      muddywaters wrote:

      I knows most of what Andy Skurka has written about.
      Innovative $hit like wearing vbl under down puffys when hiking in cold
      Using full body vbl clothing to preserve down loft on multi week extended winter trips
      Etc
      Yes I read that too. Can't say I understand all of it. But I'm with Max. If it's that cold, I'm staying home. If I used it at all, I'd probably just stick with the feet trick.
      Skurka also says that VBL's are for a very small population...those people out in frigid temps for longer than one week.
      Lost in the right direction.

    • TrafficJam wrote:

      A VBL is supposed to prevent excessive moisture loss by making the person more aware of their perspiration and cueing them to regulate their temperature more effectively. So.....what about ladies who are experiencing night sweats and hot flashes and are unable to control perspiration? Is it okay to lay in a sweat-soaked liner?
      Get nekkid and run around the tent ten times. I just could not help myself. :D
      "Dazed and Confused"
      Recycle, re-use, re-purpose
      Plant a tree
      Take a kid hiking
      Make a difference

    • Rasty wrote:

      The only vapor barrier liner I use is a couple of emergency bread bags for my feet.
      I use those regularly with my touring ski boots. Bread or oven bags do not wear out as fast when skiing vs hiking.

      I've been using exam gloves on my hands for particularly cold days.

      For my core? I differ with Andrew. I prefer ventilation when I am moving. Check this website out as it some interesting ideas. I skiied to work today at -1F wearing a 100 wt fleece and a base layer for my core. My light fleece sublimated the frost. My inner layer was bone dry.


      Does not mean my method is correct. It is correct for me and my conditions.

    • TrafficJam wrote:

      max.patch wrote:

      i can't find a clip; but the first thing i thot of when i saw this thread was the scene in annie hall where tony roberts is discussing a beautiful woman and her VPL -- visible panty line.
      What's with societies obsession to not have panty lines?It's sort of stupid, especially when bras have become a more visible part of the wardrobe.
      beats me -- i've watched annie hall more times in my life than any other movie. supposedly that movie either created or popularized the term VPL.
      2,000 miler

    • I got some fuzzy stuff from Stephenson Warmlite to experiment with VBL. I made a raincoat with it, and the fuzzy side prevents the clammy feeling. I still have to seam seal it, need some outdoor weather to use the chemicals. The idea is to use it as a liner in my quilt to keep from sticking to the Neo-Air. Came out about 9 ozs. for almost knee length, if it works instead of my nightgown and for a rain coat, and for laundry day it will save weight.

    • max.patch wrote:

      TrafficJam wrote:

      max.patch wrote:

      i can't find a clip; but the first thing i thot of when i saw this thread was the scene in annie hall where tony roberts is discussing a beautiful woman and her VPL -- visible panty line.
      What's with societies obsession to not have panty lines?It's sort of stupid, especially when bras have become a more visible part of the wardrobe.
      beats me -- i've watched annie hall more times in my life than any other movie. supposedly that movie either created or popularized the term VPL.
      Oops, deleted my post but you beat me. :D

      (Never heard of Annie hall.)
      Lost in the right direction.

    • PaulMags wrote:

      Rasty wrote:

      The only vapor barrier liner I use is a couple of emergency bread bags for my feet.
      I use those regularly with my touring ski boots. Bread or oven bags do not wear out as fast when skiing vs hiking.
      I've been using exam gloves on my hands for particularly cold days.

      For my core? I differ with Andrew. I prefer ventilation when I am moving. Check this website out as it some interesting ideas. I skiied to work today at -1F wearing a 100 wt fleece and a base layer for my core. My light fleece sublimated the frost. My inner layer was bone dry.


      Does not mean my method is correct. It is correct for me and my conditions.
      When I was doing ice sculptures regularly I wore latex gloves under a pair of 1mm thick neoprene gloves. The combination was very warm and still allowed me to use a chisel and a chain saw
      Sometimes you will never know the value of a moment until it becomes a memory.
      Dr. Seuss Cof123

    • Rasty wrote:

      PaulMags wrote:

      Rasty wrote:

      The only vapor barrier liner I use is a couple of emergency bread bags for my feet.
      I use those regularly with my touring ski boots. Bread or oven bags do not wear out as fast when skiing vs hiking.I've been using exam gloves on my hands for particularly cold days.

      For my core? I differ with Andrew. I prefer ventilation when I am moving. Check this website out as it some interesting ideas. I skiied to work today at -1F wearing a 100 wt fleece and a base layer for my core. My light fleece sublimated the frost. My inner layer was bone dry.


      Does not mean my method is correct. It is correct for me and my conditions.
      When I was doing ice sculptures regularly I wore latex gloves under a pair of 1mm thick neoprene gloves. The combination was very warm and still allowed me to use a chisel and a chain saw

      Rasty wrote:

      PaulMags wrote:

      Rasty wrote:

      The only vapor barrier liner I use is a couple of emergency bread bags for my feet.
      I use those regularly with my touring ski boots. Bread or oven bags do not wear out as fast when skiing vs hiking.I've been using exam gloves on my hands for particularly cold days.

      For my core? I differ with Andrew. I prefer ventilation when I am moving. Check this website out as it some interesting ideas. I skiied to work today at -1F wearing a 100 wt fleece and a base layer for my core. My light fleece sublimated the frost. My inner layer was bone dry.


      Does not mean my method is correct. It is correct for me and my conditions.
      When I was doing ice sculptures regularly I wore latex gloves under a pair of 1mm thick neoprene gloves. The combination was very warm and still allowed me to use a chisel and a chain saw
      In what conditions do you use the bread bags?
      Lost in the right direction.

    • TrafficJam wrote:

      Rasty wrote:

      PaulMags wrote:

      Rasty wrote:

      The only vapor barrier liner I use is a couple of emergency bread bags for my feet.
      I use those regularly with my touring ski boots. Bread or oven bags do not wear out as fast when skiing vs hiking.I've been using exam gloves on my hands for particularly cold days.
      For my core? I differ with Andrew. I prefer ventilation when I am moving. Check this website out as it some interesting ideas. I skiied to work today at -1F wearing a 100 wt fleece and a base layer for my core. My light fleece sublimated the frost. My inner layer was bone dry.


      Does not mean my method is correct. It is correct for me and my conditions.
      When I was doing ice sculptures regularly I wore latex gloves under a pair of 1mm thick neoprene gloves. The combination was very warm and still allowed me to use a chisel and a chain saw

      Rasty wrote:

      PaulMags wrote:

      Rasty wrote:

      The only vapor barrier liner I use is a couple of emergency bread bags for my feet.
      I use those regularly with my touring ski boots. Bread or oven bags do not wear out as fast when skiing vs hiking.I've been using exam gloves on my hands for particularly cold days.
      For my core? I differ with Andrew. I prefer ventilation when I am moving. Check this website out as it some interesting ideas. I skiied to work today at -1F wearing a 100 wt fleece and a base layer for my core. My light fleece sublimated the frost. My inner layer was bone dry.


      Does not mean my method is correct. It is correct for me and my conditions.
      When I was doing ice sculptures regularly I wore latex gloves under a pair of 1mm thick neoprene gloves. The combination was very warm and still allowed me to use a chisel and a chain saw
      In what conditions do you use the bread bags?
      Only used once with trail runners and freezing rain/sleet mix.
      Sometimes you will never know the value of a moment until it becomes a memory.
      Dr. Seuss Cof123

    • TrafficJam wrote:

      Traditionally, fishermen wore wool because it wicks moisture away from the skin and retains it while maintaining most of it's warmth.
      I read that the fishermen in each family of the Aran Islands of Ireland used a unique stitching pattern in their wool sweaters because it allowed the wives to more easily identify their husbands when the bodies washed ashore.

    • TrafficJam wrote:

      Traditionally, fishermen wore wool because it wicks moisture away from the skin and retains it while maintaining most of it's warmth.
      TJ how long ago was this Irish Tradition you speak of?

      On the Ocean -
      Helly Juell Hansen had been at sea since the age of 14 and in 1877, at the age of 35, he and his wife Maren Margarethe began producing oilskin jackets, trousers, sou'westers and tarpaulins, made from coarse linen soaked in linseed oil. Over the first five years they sold around 10,000 pieces. In 1878 the company won a diploma for excellence at the Paris Expo, and began exporting its products. In the 1920s a new fabric, which Helly Hansen called Linox, was developed. The surface was glossy and attractive – and, best of all, non-sticky. Over the next 30 years the name Linox would transfer to a PVC (polyvinyl chloride) application.

      Neoprene wet suits & gloves go as far back as the forties...
      Be wise enough to walk away from the nonsense around you! :thumbup:

    • Wise Old Owl wrote:

      TrafficJam wrote:

      Traditionally, fishermen wore wool because it wicks moisture away from the skin and retains it while maintaining most of it's warmth.
      TJ how long ago was this Irish Tradition you speak of?
      On the Ocean -
      Helly Juell Hansen had been at sea since the age of 14 and in 1877, at the age of 35, he and his wife Maren Margarethe began producing oilskin jackets, trousers, sou'westers and tarpaulins, made from coarse linen soaked in linseed oil. Over the first five years they sold around 10,000 pieces. In 1878 the company won a diploma for excellence at the Paris Expo, and began exporting its products. In the 1920s a new fabric, which Helly Hansen called Linox, was developed. The surface was glossy and attractive – and, best of all, non-sticky. Over the next 30 years the name Linox would transfer to a PVC (polyvinyl chloride) application.

      Neoprene wet suits & gloves go as far back as the forties...
      aransweatermarket.com/history-of-aran-sweaters

      en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aran_jumper
      Lost in the right direction.

    • I do not use a vapor barrier. I carried my drinking water on my latest hike, so I was careful not to overheat and waste water in perspiration. My breath condenses on my mustache and either freezes or drips off. I might shave the mustache next time. Condensation is a problem where my breath hits the outside of my sleeping bag. I might try some sort of vapor barrier bib to prevent this. If the temperature is cold enough, I close all the flaps on my tent and let my breath turn to ice on the inside of the tent. I try to get up before the ice melts.

    • TrafficJam wrote:

      Wise Old Owl wrote:

      TrafficJam wrote:

      Traditionally, fishermen wore wool because it wicks moisture away from the skin and retains it while maintaining most of it's warmth.
      TJ how long ago was this Irish Tradition you speak of?On the Ocean -
      Helly Juell Hansen had been at sea since the age of 14 and in 1877, at the age of 35, he and his wife Maren Margarethe began producing oilskin jackets, trousers, sou'westers and tarpaulins, made from coarse linen soaked in linseed oil. Over the first five years they sold around 10,000 pieces. In 1878 the company won a diploma for excellence at the Paris Expo, and began exporting its products. In the 1920s a new fabric, which Helly Hansen called Linox, was developed. The surface was glossy and attractive – and, best of all, non-sticky. Over the next 30 years the name Linox would transfer to a PVC (polyvinyl chloride) application.

      Neoprene wet suits & gloves go as far back as the forties...
      aransweatermarket.com/history-of-aran-sweaters
      en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aran_jumper
      thoroughly enjoyed that video, thank you

      The post was edited 3 times, last by Socks ().

    • I thought about this some more and realized I am doing something similar to VBL, but with materials of limited breathability. My Frogg Toggs jacket and nylon pants limit the rate of moisture transfer to my sleeping bag. The nylon pants trap moisture in my underwear, which I carefully dry before going to sleep. I refuse to use VBL on my feet, to avoid problems with fungi and bacteria, and to let blisters dry into calluses.