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Musings & Tinkerings of a BirdBrained Gram Weenie

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    • That's true Rafe! But often if something like that is likely I will factor it in in how much water to take. Or even if it's worth backtracking for water. On my AT Thru I hit Cheah Bald on a sunny day in early afternoon after a week of drizzel. It was worth the two mile hike to get water to stay for the night. Another option is to eat a low water meal such as a lunch in place of a dinner to enjoy an impront stop.

    • TrafficJam wrote:



      I suppose it's a bit like drinking diet coke with your large fries and double cheeseburger. ^^


      This literally made me lol! :D

      rafe wrote:

      Serious dehydration can kill your kidneys. It's not something you want to screw with. I've been caught low on water from time to time and it's extremely unpleasant. I prefer to err on the side of caution in that regard. Others may take such risks as they see fit.


      Yeah. I drink a ton of water everyday. I will err on the side of more weight for more water as well, at least until I get into my hiking routine and get a bit of experience under my belt.
      www.appalachiantrailclarity.com - Life on the A.T.

      Sometimes you find yourself in the middle of nowhere, and sometimes in the middle of nowhere, you find yourself.

    • BirdBrain wrote:

      rafe wrote:

      Too much planning smacks of hubris.


      Nice. Very nice. I plan way too much. That is no secret. I must be one arrogant bastard


      Over on TOS just a few days ago, there was a hiker calling himself "ATConquered." I don't like that name because it posits an adversarial relationship with the trail. I'm not interested in conquering the trail or even "mastering" it. I'm OK with a bit of uncertainty. If some gorgeous, unexpected campsite presents itself at the right time of day (and I have enough water in my Platy bag) I'll probably go for it.

    • BirdBrain wrote:

      That is logical too. I can see that reasoning. Really don't understand the reaction to my preference though. There is a term in economics called an opportunity cost. The opportunity cost of my unwillingness to carry contingency water is that I don't get to be flexible. The opportunity cost of your desire to have options is the added weight of water. I really don't understand how that is a concept that should draw such ire. It is a choice, not an evil or irresponsible act. I am grasping why the other side does what they do now. It isn't for me, but it does not have to be.


      bb. i think you're reading too much into some of the responses.on short trips, we all plan pretty much the same way, know where our "reliable"sources are and plan accordingly. its really the longer trips that the planning has o go out the window. in addition, your rate of hydration differs from hour to hour. you may get to the next source with 2 liters of water, or get there bone dry. its the rate youre sweating , rate your drinking, that alters the landscape the longer youre out on the trail. let see how well you can plan your daily water stops when youre out for a couple of months.its all good.
      its all good

    • hikerboy wrote:

      BirdBrain wrote:

      That is logical too. I can see that reasoning. Really don't understand the reaction to my preference though. There is a term in economics called an opportunity cost. The opportunity cost of my unwillingness to carry contingency water is that I don't get to be flexible. The opportunity cost of your desire to have options is the added weight of water. I really don't understand how that is a concept that should draw such ire. It is a choice, not an evil or irresponsible act. I am grasping why the other side does what they do now. It isn't for me, but it does not have to be.


      bb. i think you're reading too much into some of the responses.on short trips, we all plan pretty much the same way, know where our "reliable"sources are and plan accordingly. its really the longer trips that the planning has o go out the window. in addition, your rate of hydration differs from hour to hour. you may get to the next source with 2 liters of water, or get there bone dry. its the rate youre sweating , rate your drinking, that alters the landscape the longer youre out on the trail. let see how well you can plan your daily water stops when youre out for a couple of months.its all good.


      I agree. On a short trip I love to pour over maps to the point I have pretty much memorized them. I' have enough experience that I know it's not rally needed, but I just love looking at them anticipating my hike. For me maps are artwork. I like them on my walls rather than abstract pictures. For me to plan water stops for a 500 mile LASH would drive me as crazy as it would drive you not to BB. Not saying that I won't form a plan for the next day.

    • I'm not saying you shouldn't have a plan. I'm just saying that you don't have to stick to it, and I plan a contingency around the possibilty that I won't stick to it. That means extra consumables, in case I take a longer time to get where I'm going than I've planned, for weal or woe. Or even just in case I'm hungrier or thirstier than I've planned.

      "No plan of operations extends with any certainty beyond the first contact with the main hostile force." - Field Marshal Helmuth von Moltke the Elder
      I'm not lost. I know where I am. I'm right here.

    • I'm trying to wrap my brain around the notion of "reliable water." Because water on the trail can be utterly unreliable.

      Lakes and rivers are (usually) reliable, but they are generally found at low altitude. I've been through the HMW a couple of times now, once in September, once in August, and most of those notorious "fords" were either nonexistent or barely ankle-deep. I've walked the mid-Atlantic AT in August/September of a drought year, and where water sources at many shelters and campsites were absolutely marginal.

      So I've concluded that one must be opportunistic, and take water where one can, rather than where the water "ought" to be. When I find water, I have to decide just how much to carry, which requires some estimation of my forward speed and the distance to the next water source. It's a crapshoot. I can't be 100% sure of either one, so my strategy is to carry more than I think I'll need.

      I almost always tank up heavily before heading up a big vertical. Sometimes I try to "cheat" by delaying the fill-up, hoping to get some extra climbing out of the way before I take all that water weight. But this is always a risky proposition. Sometimes I get it wrong, and I get into trouble. The other mistake I've made all too often is to not take on water when I should have -- it was there for the taking, but I was in too much of a hurry to stop.

    • Mountain-Mike wrote:

      I may not plan it out before my trip but i pay attention to it on the trail. If water isn't plentifull I will study the map or guidebook for where the next water source is & carry what I feel is appropriate. I Hate to carry extra water!

      I hate carrying extra water but I sometimes do. I like carrying just enough between sources. I really like it when I'm drinking my last swallow just as I'm walking up to my next water source.
      Changes Daily→ ♪♫♪♫♪♫♪♫ ♪♫♪♫♪♫ ← Don't blame me. It's That Lonesome Guitar.

    • milkman wrote:

      Mountain-Mike wrote:

      I may not plan it out before my trip but i pay attention to it on the trail. If water isn't plentifull I will study the map or guidebook for where the next water source is & carry what I feel is appropriate. I Hate to carry extra water!

      I hate carrying extra water but I sometimes do. I like carrying just enough between sources. I really like it when I'm drinking my last swallow just as I'm walking up to my next water source.


      Same here, I drink as much as I can at each water hole and fill a Smart Water bottle to carry, I try to have that bottle emptied well before the next water hole.
      I may grow old but I'll never grow up.



    • Thanks guys for all the tips, strategies, advice, and knowledge. I have stated many times that my primary purpose in being on this site is the selfish acquisition of information that benefits me. I am a consumer of information. I live with the knowledge that the world is full of people that know how to do it better than me. In the case of hiking, there are many good ways to do it. It was my quest here to find those people and glean everything from them in hopes that I can do it better. I do not possess natural talents or abilities that would sustain me though inferior practices. I need every bit of help I can get. At this point, I am straining over gnats. Observing such a pursuit is very painful for most. Such is the case in this last debate. Somehow planning to take the correct amount of water has been interpreted as an avocation of carrying an unsafe amount of water. I think this is not born of the words I used, but rather of a distain for my incessant micromanaging view of all that I do. I would think the fact that I hiked across Maine last year, experienced only one day of rain, but yet was never in danger of dehydration should account for something. Each will have to decide for themselves what is best. After all that is what it is all about. HYOH. I have not arrived. I am not done making mistakes. I hope to learn from my mistakes. I would rather learn from others. However, this method of information gathering has run its course (me constantly pushing the envelope of details publicly). It is time I become a lurker.

      So long and thanks for all the fish.
      Non hikers are about a psi shy of a legal ball.

    • Stick around BB. No need to take us so seriously. Most of us think we know it all. So much so that we've been kicked off of other hiking sites 'cuz of our big mouths and bad attitudes.(*) We take "you're doing it wrong" as a compliment.

      *OK maybe I should speak for myself on that point.... :rolleyes:

    • TrafficJam wrote:

      Nooooooo!!!! Don't scramble that password! You're important to us and we don't want you to go. Besides, I can't afford therapy, I NEED you! :D

      Hiking is good therapy. Once we buy our gear, it's just walking, eating, and sleeping. Food is the main recurring expense. Buying individual portions is more expensive, but there are ways to avoid that. Eating is more expensive because we eat more, but ramen and oatmeal can be cheap.
      I am human and I need to be loved - just like everybody else does

    • rocksNsocks wrote:

      I understand BB, sorry I missed you ole friend.


      This means more to me than you know RS. I thought I drove you away. I can needle and needle and needle. I view it as competing for an idea to discover and/or debate its veracity. I do it in real life too. I have been told by many people it comes off another way. It is never my intent.

      Back to lurking. Had to address everyone's buddy... RS.
      Non hikers are about a psi shy of a legal ball.

    • rocksNsocks wrote:

      I understand BB, sorry I missed you ole friend.


      BirdBrain wrote:

      rocksNsocks wrote:

      I understand BB, sorry I missed you ole friend.


      This means more to me than you know RS. I thought I drove you away. I can needle and needle and needle. I view it as competing for an idea to discover and/or debate its veracity. I do it in real life too. I have been told by many people it comes off another way. It is never my intent.

      Back to lurking. Had to address everyone's buddy... RS.


      I wish you both would just maintain........all of us....we are not the same but we are all the same. You both are part of this mess......when one of us gets down...or disappears we all get concerned, did we offend, is someone sick....did they fall off the Great Wall. This :thumbsup: is for both of you....and all the girls we may have POed along the way!
      Cheesecake> Ramen :thumbsup:

    • Bird Brain, no way did you drive me away, not at all. I'm all about if I have a problem with someone, then it's my problem to fix or accept anyway. I found some things unacceptable to me, but have since worked through em, well most of them, it's a work in progress. I can't change anybody but myself, so I'll start there. Stop in when ya can, would love to catch up sometime. I still haven't even fired that stove yet...but I'm workin' on it. all the best, and thank you.

      Thanks Lou, I appreciate that, a lot, I do!

    • Well heck, I was thinking for a while it was me that drove Birdbrain away, after our last harangue about hiking itineraries and how much water to carry. Sometimes the internet is a crappy way of discussing stuff -- you hardly ever see these kinds of heated discussions and hard feelings around the campfire. Sometimes it's best just to back off and agree to disagree... and I'm directing that advice to myself, as much as anyone else. ;)

    • BirdBrain wrote:

      Calm down folks. I just want to read for a while.


      S'cool. Write when you feel like it - your stuff is thought-provoking, which is why it sometimes provokes such spirited discussion.

      Hope I didn't contribute TOO much to your feeling of being dogpiled. Some of your more "eccentric" ideas just won't work for me. Different styles, is all.
      I'm not lost. I know where I am. I'm right here.



    • A note to those that are getting items from me in the mail: Some of you are getting stands for testing and feedback. A couple others are getting other items with the stand. Those that are getting other items as well should check back for the feedback that will hopefully follow from the testers. This stand is hard to show via picture. It is symmetrical and loads are across vertical planes. It does not look like that via picture. Even in person, it appears to warp as it is rotated. It is not the easiest thing to build and have exact angles and distances.

      The stand that is in the picture above is not a new concept. I built some out of 1/16" stainless steel wire last year. I was not happy with the strength to weight ratio, so I shelved it in favor of other stand designs. I revisited it recently with the thought of building it out of other materials. I 1st tried titanium. I could not get my hands on 21" grade 5 pieces. I tried grade 2. That is way too soft. Being a person that is open to all options, I tried 3/32" aluminum with surprising results.

      Aluminum has a melting point of 1221°. The peak temperature of my preferred fuel (methanol) is 3998°. I expected the aluminum to melt during a replication of field cooking. It does not. Next, I tried to melt it by inserting it directly into the flame. If you keep the material in the sweet spot of the flame, it will melt in matter of seconds. If you move the material out of the sweet spot, it instantly solidifies. If you place the material so it is touching the end of the flame, it does not melt.

      I say all this because I sent an incomplete set of information to those that I covet opinions from. I have done the destructive testing. I am looking for critical thinking. Testers, give me your honest opinions. At 6.5 grams, I believe I have my stand. I believe I may be biased. I will check back to see the feedback.

      PS. This stand is designed for an eCHS that is 35mm in height.
      Non hikers are about a psi shy of a legal ball.

      The post was edited 2 times, last by BirdBrain ().

    • BirdBrain wrote:



      A note to those that are getting items from me in the mail: Some of you are getting stands for testing and feedback. A couple others are getting other items with the stand. Those that are getting other items as well should check back for the feedback that will hopefully follow from the testers. This stand is hard to show via picture. It is symmetrical and loads are across vertical planes. It does not look like that via picture. Even in person, it appears to warp as it is rotated. It is not the easiest thing to build and have exact angles and distances.

      The stand that is in the picture above is not a new concept. I built some out of 1/16" stainless steel wire last year. I was not happy with the strength to weight ratio, so I shelved it in favor of other stand designs. I revisited it recently with the thought of building it out of other materials. I 1st tried titanium. I could not get my hands on 21" grade 5 pieces. I tried grade 2. That is way too soft. Being a person that is open to all options, I tried 3/32" aluminum with surprising results.

      Aluminum has a melting point of 1221°. The peak temperature of my preferred fuel (methanol) is 3998°. I expected the aluminum to melt during a replication of field cooking. It does not. Next, I tried to melt it by inserting it directly into the flame. If you keep the material in the sweet spot of the flame, it will melt in matter of seconds. If you move the material out of the sweet spot, it instantly solidifies. If you place the material so it is touching the end of the flame, it does not melt.

      I say all this because I sent an incomplete set of information to those that I covet opinions from. I have done the destructive testing. I am looking for critical thinking. Testers, give me your honest opinions. At 6.5 grams, I believe I have my stand. I believe I may be biased. I will check back to see the feedback.


      That my friend, is a work of art... :thumbsup:
      1 Fish, 2 Fish, Red Fish, Blue Fish...