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Alcohol Stoves

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    • LittleBitWorks wrote:

      I made one more strange alcohol stove.

      translate.google.com/translate…post-9c7d.html&edit-text=


      LIhikers wrote:

      If the inner ring is made from the side walls of a drink can, you'd better not be using heavy water in that cup.
      I'm too hard on my gear for that to work for me.


      Dollar Tree sells an aluminum spray bottle with the perfect diameter (49 mm - 1 15/16") for making that stove from a typical 12 fluid ounce soda can. Adding vent holes to relieve pressure inside the inner cylinder would be a good idea. If the pot forms a tight seal against the top of the inner cylinder, pressure can force fuel out of the bottom of the inner cylinder, and fuel may overflow the outer wall of the stove. Condensation of fuel and water vapor on the bottom of the pot makes a tighter seal. The stove in the video does not need pressure relief holes because the inner cylinder is split up the side, not continuous.
      I am human and I need to be loved - just like everybody else does

      The post was edited 1 time, last by WanderingStovie ().

    • Rasty wrote:

      WanderingStovie wrote:

      If you want to clone the Caldera Cone without patent infringement, is there a good stove that supports the pot without a stand?


      They have a patent on a cone?

      Use straight side walls instead


      The patent also describes straight walled wind screens. zenstoves.net/Patents/Alcohol/US7967003.pdf
      I am human and I need to be loved - just like everybody else does

    • Which stoves work well on a cold surface, e.g. 1/8" thick aluminum plate, aluminum picnic table, snow, or ice? I expect stoves with a wick or some other type of capillary action should outperform under these conditions.

      I expect the supercat, pressurized side burners (White Box or "Bud Light" stoves), and anything else requiring priming or warm up before use will have problems. I expect the Penny stove will only work if you use the base.
      I am human and I need to be loved - just like everybody else does

      The post was edited 1 time, last by WanderingStovie ().

    • No tabs, no creases, no JB Weld, no 0.7 mm jet holes, no tornado - this is my latest capillary stove. The one unique feature is the flanged strip of aluminum that creates the capillary action. I guess I will call it a capillary flange stove, or CFS. I made it from a 12 fluid ounce aluminum soda can and a 49 mm diameter cylinder cut from an aluminum spray bottle I bought at Dollar Tree. I punched a row of 1/8" diameter holes centered 1/4" from the top edge of the 49 mm diameter cylinder. I punched the holes inward, so the burrs around the holes maintain a slight gap between the cylinder and the flanged strip. That vents fuel vapors originating outside the cylinder, and helps prevent a build up of pressure that could push fuel under the cylinder and cause an overflow. The flanged strip covers the holes, making it difficult for a flame to pass through and blow the stove apart. The flange reduces ejection of fuel droplets, but they are still visible as yellow sparkles in the mostly blue flame.

      I put just enough room temperature denatured alcohol in the bottom to cover the dome. I put the burner on an inch of snow and lit the fuel with a Scripto lighter. The capillary action started almost immediately, and the fuel burned at an even rate until very little fuel remained. The flames were much smaller as the last few drops of fuel burned. The snow under the burner melted, leaving the burner resting on an icy cement sidewalk.




      I am human and I need to be loved - just like everybody else does

      The post was edited 4 times, last by WanderingStovie ().

    • The JB Weld is drying on my latest tornado stove. I used pieces of two 12 fluid ounce aluminum soda cans and a 49 mm diameter aluminum spray bottle (from Dollar Tree), and two 1/8" eyelets. I cut a 33 mm long cylinder from the spray bottle. I cut 10 mm from the bottom of one can, removed the concave portion of the bottom with a flat file, and filed the hole with a round file to make it fit around the cylinder. I flared one end of the cylinder, removed the coatings from the cylinder and can bottom, and joined the flared end of the cylinder to the can bottom with JB Weld. The flared end conforms to the shape of the can bottom, and prevents the can bottom from sliding off the flared end. I put 7 evenly spaced (every 22 mm) marks around the circumference of the cylinder near the joint. I drilled 1/32" diameter holes at the marks, angling the holes as Tetkoba does for his Capillary Hoop Stove (CHS). The completed subassembly stands 40 mm tall. I cut a 28 mm wide strip from the side wall of the soda can. I wrapped it tightly around the cylinder, taped it, removed it from the cylinder, punched two 1/8" holes through the overlapped portion, and installed 1/8" eyelets with the heads on the side that touches the cylinder. I removed the tape and slid the strip over the cylinder. I cut 42 mm from the bottom of the second soda can. I inserted the 40 mm tall subassembly into the second can bottom until the cylinder touched the bottom. Then I rolled the edge of the second can over the edge of the first can.

      The finished stove is 40 mm tall and 66 mm in diameter.

      I am human and I need to be loved - just like everybody else does

      The post was edited 2 times, last by WanderingStovie ().

    • WanderingStovie wrote:

      Which stoves work well on a cold surface, e.g. 1/8" thick aluminum plate, aluminum picnic table, snow, or ice? I expect stoves with a wick or some other type of capillary action should outperform under these conditions.

      I expect the supercat, pressurized side burners (White Box or "Bud Light" stoves), and anything else requiring priming or warm up before use will have problems. I expect the Penny stove will only work if you use the base.


      The Penny Stove is no longer self-priming in subfreezing conditions. The base I use on mine is the bottom of another seltzer can with tabs bent in to support the stove alternating with ones bent out to hold it laterally. I can put a few drops of alcohol in it and light from below. If the fuel is really, really cold, I may need to stick a wisp of TP into the priming dish to get even the priming fuel started. Once it's primed, it works like a champ.
      I'm not lost. I know where I am. I'm right here.

    • My latest tornado stove did not work as well as I hoped. I set it down in a pile of plowed snow. I lit about half an ounce of alcohol in it. It melted a 3" deep hole in the snow, making its own windscreen. The jets did not form while it sat in the snow. I picked it up, and the jets formed after it got too hot to hold. I set it back down in the snow and the jets vanished. I think my mistake was letting the inner cylinder touch the bottom of the can. I also think it leaked fuel vapors. I will try again with another can bottom and more JB Weld.
      I am human and I need to be loved - just like everybody else does

    • I tested my latest tornado stove some more tonight. Keeping the inner cylinder off the can bottom did not make it work any better when sitting on snow. The solution to that will be an integrated stand with three pieces that fold out to hold the pot and elevate the stove, and an optional thin flat circle to act as a snowshoe.

      I removed the capillary strip that was around the inside cylinder, to see what would happen. The burner bloomed (when not sitting in snow), but not quickly.
      I am human and I need to be loved - just like everybody else does

      The post was edited 2 times, last by WanderingStovie ().

    • Here is my Tornado Cat alcohol burner. I started with Jim Wood's Simmer Cat, added an inner wall with pressurized jets angled inward to produce a tornado-like flame (used by JSB, KMKMR22, LittleBitWorks, Tetkoba, and others), and lined the walls with capillary hoops. I do not add grooves or creases to the capillary hoops (or virtual wicks, as Don Hitchcock would call them). There is no need for a strip skirt, due to the shape and size of the cans used. I form the capillary hoops from strips of aluminum. I join the ends without fasteners, since eyelets or staples would interfere with assembly.

      I use the pull tab to remove the top of a 3 ounce aluminum can of cat food or potted meat. I roll the inner lip downward, flush with the inside of the can, using the side of my center punch. I remove the bottom 4 mm, leaving 33 mm. I leave the cut edge rough to allow fuel to flow freely to the capillary hoops. I used a compass, pen, ruler, and circle cutter to make a 63 mm disc with 9 evenly spaced lines extending from the center to the edge. I use the disc to place 9 evenly spaced marks around the top edge of the can, as seen in picture 2. I press the center punch into each mark at the line where the inside diameter decreases. I use a #70 drill bit and a rotary tool to drill 0.71 mm holes into the indentations, through two layers of aluminum. I angle the drill bit as seen in picture 3.

      I cut two 25 mm wide strips of aluminum from the side of an aluminum beverage container. I use a 23 fluid ounce Arizona tea can, but a 12 fluid ounce soda can would also provide suitable (and thinner) material. I wrap the first strip tightly around the cat food can and mark the overlap. I add 1 mm to the circumference and join the ends by cutting tabs along both edges of the overlap, and bending the tabs outward (away from the cat food can). See pictures 4 and 5.

      I remove the top of a steel 4.25 ounce Underwood deviled ham can with a "safety" side cutting can opener. I wrap the second 25 mm wide strip tightly around the inside of the steel can and mark the overlap. I subtract 1 mm from the circumference and join the ends with tabs cut along both edges of the overlap, bending the tabs inward (away from the steel can). See pictures 6 and 7.

      I place the top 33 mm of the cat food can upside down on the table, slip both capillary hoops over the cat food can, and press the steel can down around them. I flip the steel can right side up, and push the cat food can into the steel can until it rests on the bottom. See pictures 8, 9, and 10. I punch 27 evenly spaced 3/16" diameter holes in a row centered 5/16" down from the edge of the steel can, as seen in picture 11.
      Images

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      I am human and I need to be loved - just like everybody else does

    • The Tornado Cat alcohol burner described above is my second attempt at making this type of burner. The first version used the entire height of the cat food can, with a large hole cut in the bottom and four slots filed around the bottom corner. There were only 9 air holes 3/16" in diameter. The capillary hoops were different.

      The first version took 40 seconds to bloom. The current version bloomed in 12 seconds. Ah, progress..

      If the wind dies down, I will try using it as a Simmer Cat, with the pot balanced on the rim of the burner. The previous version did not stay lit. The new version has 3 times as many 3/16" diameter holes, with the equivalent area of 15 holes 1/4" in diameter, as found on Jim Wood's Simmer Cat.
      I am human and I need to be loved - just like everybody else does

    • I can't help but feel many of the recent designs in here are little more than tin bowls and are very flimsy. I love alcohol stoves but as someone who throws things into my pack fairly haphazardly, I must admit to a strong preference for more robust units. I particularly like where the stove can support the pot. Fiddling with little wire supports is not something I like. Also many appear to be sacrificing weight in the stove which is then needed in the pot support.
      I love what you guys come up with but i still think the last stoves BB was working on were the pinnacle of what I have seen and I really miss him.
      That last one is cool though.
      Resident Australian, proving being a grumpy old man is not just an American trait.

    • WanderingStovie wrote:

      Great to have you join us, Zelph.

      If I cut the top off one of those aluminum cat food cans with a "safety" side-cutting can opener, what would be a good way to seal it back up? JB Weld + file?


      Why not leave the top installed instead of JD Welding it back in?
      Try using a hole saw to open the middle of the top and then scoop out the cat food and finally wash out the can.
      I'd give it a try anyway, if it doesn't work at least the neighborhood cat got a free meal.

    • LIhikers wrote:

      WanderingStovie wrote:

      Great to have you join us, Zelph.

      If I cut the top off one of those aluminum cat food cans with a "safety" side-cutting can opener, what would be a good way to seal it back up? JB Weld + file?


      Why not leave the top installed instead of JD Welding it back in?
      Try using a hole saw to open the middle of the top and then scoop out the cat food and finally wash out the can.
      I'd give it a try anyway, if it doesn't work at least the neighborhood cat got a free meal.


      It is probably easier to install the metal mesh and the wicking material with the top removed. After closer inspection of Zelph's photographs, I would guess he removes the top with a flat file, based on the flat area I see there. I originally noticed what seemed to be the marks of a can opener around the inside of the rim. I was thinking of building Tetkoba's high capacity mini CHS, not Zelph's big new Starlyte. With the mini CHS, I could leave the top on, but the can might be useful for other designs as well.
      I am human and I need to be loved - just like everybody else does

    • WanderingStovie wrote:

      LittleBitWorks wrote:

      I made one more strange alcohol stove.

      translate.google.com/translate…post-9c7d.html&edit-text=


      LIhikers wrote:

      If the inner ring is made from the side walls of a drink can, you'd better not be using heavy water in that cup.
      I'm too hard on my gear for that to work for me.


      Dollar Tree sells an aluminum spray bottle with the perfect diameter (49 mm - 1 15/16") for making that stove from a typical 12 fluid ounce soda can. Adding vent holes to relieve pressure inside the inner cylinder would be a good idea. If the pot forms a tight seal against the top of the inner cylinder, pressure can force fuel out of the bottom of the inner cylinder, and fuel may overflow the outer wall of the stove. Condensation of fuel and water vapor on the bottom of the pot makes a tighter seal. The stove in the video does not need pressure relief holes because the inner cylinder is split up the side, not continuous.

      Great!
      You understand the structural advantages of this alcohol stove definitely.
      I want to become able to judge it like you definitely, too.

    • The support cylinder makes LittleBitWorks' Zero stove similar to Zelph's Fancee Feest, but without a wick, and built from materials that are very light but not sturdy. I understand the support cylinder acts to some extent as a windscreen, but with a wick you can use a support cylinder with a diameter much closer to that of the fuel holder. Using a support cylinder of maximum diameter should block the wind better and make a more stable pot support.

      If there is very little room between the fuel holder and the support cylinder, then capillary action will draw fuel up between them, and bubbles in the boiling fuel can spatter burning fuel out the side of the stove. It would be interesting to try adding a capillary hoop around a support cylinder, where the diameter of the support cylinder is a few millimeters smaller than the fuel holder. Keeping the top of the capillary hoop below the top of the fuel holder should reduce spatter.

      Putting the capillary hoop inside the support cylinder could eliminate spatter, but the support cylinder would need holes for the fuel vapor to leave and burn.

      I find a gap of 1/6 of a millimeter works well for capillary action.
      I am human and I need to be loved - just like everybody else does

    • http://youtu.be/nXkk0JFbvVE

      I made a short video of lighting my Tornado Cat, using it with my tripod stand, and using it like a simmer cat. I have some work to do if I want to use it like a Simmer Cat, as seen in the second half of the video.
      I am human and I need to be loved - just like everybody else does

      The post was edited 1 time, last by WanderingStovie ().

    • OzJacko wrote:

      I can't help but feel many of the recent designs in here are little more than tin bowls and are very flimsy. I love alcohol stoves but as someone who throws things into my pack fairly haphazardly, I must admit to a strong preference for more robust units. I particularly like where the stove can support the pot. Fiddling with little wire supports is not something I like. Also many appear to be sacrificing weight in the stove which is then needed in the pot support.
      I love what you guys come up with but i still think the last stoves BB was working on were the pinnacle of what I have seen and I really miss him.
      That last one is cool though.


      I like the center burning stoves for their simplicity and efficiency, but that does mean needing a pot stand. I make pot stands out of ring of hardware cloth. They are very light but very sturdy. I make them just a bit smaller than the inside diameter of the pot so they pack inside the pot. Nothing to assemble and very stable. I've tipped over a few meals on flimsy pot stands and cat food can side burners. I'm clutsy enough to need a wide base for my pot stand. The stove ("flimsy" - made from an Aluminum V8 juice can) packs inside the pot too so it's pretty well protected.



    • Here is the fourth version of my Tornado Cat alcohol burner. I use an 8 ounce steel can of Ocean Spray cranberry sauce. It is taller, the bottom is flatter, and it rests on a wider base (the bottom rim). The extra height gives enough thermal feedback to make the stove work well as a Cat stove with the pot resting on the rim. The 9 pressurized jets appear 12 seconds after lighting the stove, and converge to form a tornado-like flame. The pot can be placed on the rim shortly thereafter, or a pot stand can be used. I expect it will burn at a faster rate when used with a pot stand, but I have not tested boil times yet.

      The stove is 69 mm tall and 67 mm in diameter. There are 27 holes of 3/16" diameter evenly spaced in a row centered 1" down from the rim.
      I am human and I need to be loved - just like everybody else does

      The post was edited 1 time, last by WanderingStovie ().

    • The first test of the Tornado Cat version 4 produced a yellow flame and turned the coating inside the steel can to ash. I removed the ash with a rotating steel brush.

      I put an ounce of denatured alcohol in the Tornado Cat, lit it, waited 20 seconds, and set a Halulite Minimalist pot with 2 cups (480 ml) of 73F water on the rim of the stove. The flame quickly went out. I relit the stove, waited 30 seconds, and set the pot on the rim. 12 minutes after relighting, the water boiled vigorously. I removed the pot and watched the tornado-like flame until it died down and the last bit of fuel burned in the bottom of the stove. The flame was blue while the pot was on the stove.

      The windscreen I used is 5 3/4" tall and 5 1/4" in diameter. It is partially closed at the bottom, with an 80 mm diameter hole in the center, and three legs which leave a 1/4" gap under the bottom rim. The stove and windscreen rested on a steel lid, which rested on concrete. The temperature was about 30F and the wind was mild.
      I am human and I need to be loved - just like everybody else does

      The post was edited 1 time, last by WanderingStovie ().

    • Here is the top jet stove I have been working on this week.



      The rate of burn is adjustable by varying the distance between the jets and the bottom of the pot. With the pot resting on the two support wires, the time to boil 2 cups (480 ml) of 70F water with 15 ml of yellow Heet (methanol) was 10:14, and the fuel burned for 11:02. With the pot supported by the tripod stand, the time to boil 2 cups (480 ml) of 70F water with 30 ml of yellow Heet (methanol) was 5:02, and the fuel burned for 6:38.
      I am human and I need to be loved - just like everybody else does

    • WanderingStovie wrote:



      Here is the fourth version of my Tornado Cat alcohol burner. I use an 8 ounce steel can of Ocean Spray cranberry sauce. It is taller, the bottom is flatter, and it rests on a wider base (the bottom rim). The extra height gives enough thermal feedback to make the stove work well as a Cat stove with the pot resting on the rim. The 9 pressurized jets appear 12 seconds after lighting the stove, and converge to form a tornado-like flame. The pot can be placed on the rim shortly thereafter, or a pot stand can be used. I expect it will burn at a faster rate when used with a pot stand, but I have not tested boil times yet.

      The stove is 69 mm tall and 67 mm in diameter. There are 27 holes of 3/16" diameter evenly spaced in a row centered 1" down from the rim.


      I'm no stove expert like you guys, but, there's no sense in making heat any faster than your pot can absorb it...is there?

    • LIhikers wrote:

      WanderingStovie wrote:



      Here is the fourth version of my Tornado Cat alcohol burner. I use an 8 ounce steel can of Ocean Spray cranberry sauce. It is taller, the bottom is flatter, and it rests on a wider base (the bottom rim). The extra height gives enough thermal feedback to make the stove work well as a Cat stove with the pot resting on the rim. The 9 pressurized jets appear 12 seconds after lighting the stove, and converge to form a tornado-like flame. The pot can be placed on the rim shortly thereafter, or a pot stand can be used. I expect it will burn at a faster rate when used with a pot stand, but I have not tested boil times yet.

      The stove is 69 mm tall and 67 mm in diameter. There are 27 holes of 3/16" diameter evenly spaced in a row centered 1" down from the rim.


      I'm no stove expert like you guys, but, there's no sense in making heat any faster than your pot can absorb it...is there?


      All stoves produce more heat than the pot can absorb. Creating a system that maximizes the amount of heat transferred should be one of the goals. Strength to weight ratios and functionality should be others. In general, the slower the stove transfers the heat the more efficiently it will be transferred. About 4 minutes is about right for me. Any gain in efficiency by slowing the transfer of heat beyond the 4 minutes is not worth the wait time for me. Everyone must decide for themselves. Stove design is huge. A cone helps to contain the transfer of heat as well. How hot the cone gets is also an indicator. All things must be in balance. The fact that I am using a stand that melts at 1221° and the fact that I can touch the cone or hold the stove while it is burning, tells me that I am doing some things right.

      Other people just want a flame thrower. its all good.
      Non hikers are about a psi shy of a legal ball.

    • BB, I'd love if you could draft a set of plans and/or instructions for your current design, particularly if it has decent low-temp performance! It would be a plus if it can be adapted to simmer (or if there's a sufficiently lightweight simmer stove that I could pair it with). I'm probably going to have to work on the knack of getting that rolled edge.

      I've recently used my Penny 2.0 near 0 °F - it works ok, but needs an external primer. I've never melted my pot stand, but I've burnt through my windscreen a time or two when I used too much priming fuel. The thing does turn into a blowtorch when the priming flame is too big.

      Nice to see you're still tinkering with these. I thought you might have given that up after you wrote about going stoveless.
      I'm not lost. I know where I am. I'm right here.

    • AnotherKevin wrote:

      BB, I'd love if you could draft a set of plans and/or instructions for your current design, particularly if it has decent low-temp performance! It would be a plus if it can be adapted to simmer (or if there's a sufficiently lightweight simmer stove that I could pair it with). I'm probably going to have to work on the knack of getting that rolled edge.

      I've recently used my Penny 2.0 near 0 °F - it works ok, but needs an external primer. I've never melted my pot stand, but I've burnt through my windscreen a time or two when I used too much priming fuel. The thing does turn into a blowtorch when the priming flame is too big.

      Nice to see you're still tinkering with these. I thought you might have given that up after you wrote about going stoveless.


      This is how you make an eCHS.



      This shows the effects of height. I prefer 35mm high.



      This shows the effects of aperture diameter. I prefer 39mm.



      Here is a simmer ring design.



      My version is made out of 1 V8 can, has 32 tabs at the bottom (similar to a JSB design), 16 slanted creases, and 8 jets drilled at 0.6mm. I do not use a simmer ring. I boil 2 cups, pour into food in freezer bag and into coffee.
      Non hikers are about a psi shy of a legal ball.

    • LIhikers wrote:

      I'm no stove expert like you guys, but, there's no sense in making heat any faster than your pot can absorb it...is there?


      However the pot can absorb heat faster. You will often see boil times (for 2 cups room temp water) for canister stoves in the 3 minute range and for alcohol stoves in the 7 minute range. The fact that the canister stove boils in 3 min proves that you can transfer heat to the pot faster. One of the most common reasons that people cite for choosing NOT to use alcohol stoves is that they think they have long boil times compared to canister stoves. True if you use a Starlyte, Trangia, penny stove, etc... But most people are only familiar with alcohol systems that have not been optimized.

      There are two ways to decrease boil times. One is to increase heat output. This is where canister stoves excel. They are blowtorches that generate a huge amount of heat. However this comes with a cost - loss of efficiency. If you feel heat coming up the sides of your pot, then that is heat that is not getting to your food (lost heat=low efficiency). This is not deal breaker with canister stoves since the fuel has so much more available energy compared to alcohol. Also, canister stoves deliver heat to the middle of the pot, so even with a high heat output you still get reasonable efficiencies. A popular alcohol stove that uses the inefficient blowtorch method cutting boil times is the supercat cat food stove. It is a very powerful side burning stove, but because it sends so much heat up the side of the pot, it is inherently inefficient. The eCHS stove that BB and I are using generates a lot of heat AND it focuses it on the center of the pot to maximize heat transfer.

      The other way to cut boil times is to enhance heat exchange between the flames and the pot. Alcohol stoves use wind screens to keep heat from dissipating and maximize efficiency. But with a canister stove you have to be careful with the use of wind screens as they can make your canister explode. The way to get around this problem is to use a pot with a heat exchanger (radiator-like fins on the bottom of the pot). This is what the Jet Boil does. This gives you a system that is very powerful and efficient. I accomplish this with my eCHS alcohol stove by using an Olicamp XTS pot that has a heat exchanger in it. The other option with alcohol stoves is to use a cone wind screen. This keeps the heat in contact with the pot to maximize heat exchange (I think BB is using this strategy). This is a lighter weight option as the heat exchange pots are not exactly UL.

      The bottom line is that you have to consider the whole system (stove, pot, screen) when evaluating alcohol stoves and recognize that most systems have not been optimized. I can boil 2 cups of water in less than 4 min with less than 15 mL of fuel. I think BB is getting about the same or a little better.

    • LIhikers wrote:


      ...
      I'm no stove expert like you guys, but, there's no sense in making heat any faster than your pot can absorb it...is there?


      I use a Halulite Minimalist pot, which is tall and skinny. The grease pot that BB uses is short and fat, and therefore absorbs heat much better.

      I can boil 2 cups of water with 15 ml of yellow bottle Heet (methanol), but my skinny pot has to be exactly centered over the stove, there must be a perfectly round flame that comes to the edge of the pot without rising up the sides, and there cannot be any wind.

      I can boil 2 cups of 70F water in my skinny pot in 4:15, but I need flames surrounding the sides of the pot, and nearly twice as much fuel.

      If I post a design for a flamethrower stove, it could be useful for larger diameter pots, and might be perfect for someone cooking for multiple people.
      I am human and I need to be loved - just like everybody else does