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Bear canisters new ATC recommendation

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    • max.patch wrote:

      this is from the link elf posted:

      "Bear-resistant canisters trap odors inside, eliminating the lure of food, and they are designed to be tamper-resistant against extreme force."

      i don't think that's true but i'm willing to be convinced otherwise.

      its my understanding that the bears can still smell food, they just can't get it. if they couldn't smell the food, then why would they waste their time trying to figure out how to get into the canister? and if the canisters trapped odors, then the tamper resistant technology could be reduced so that these things don't weigh 2+ pounds.
      A bear can smell food residue on the outside of commercially canned food. This can was sealed in a autoclave and thoroughly washed. Bears will separate cans of pickled items from other cans because they apparently don't like vinegar.
      Sometimes you will never know the value of a moment until it becomes a memory.
      Dr. Seuss Cof123

    • Rasty wrote:

      max.patch wrote:

      this is from the link elf posted:

      "Bear-resistant canisters trap odors inside, eliminating the lure of food, and they are designed to be tamper-resistant against extreme force."

      i don't think that's true but i'm willing to be convinced otherwise.

      its my understanding that the bears can still smell food, they just can't get it. if they couldn't smell the food, then why would they waste their time trying to figure out how to get into the canister? and if the canisters trapped odors, then the tamper resistant technology could be reduced so that these things don't weigh 2+ pounds.
      A bear can smell food residue on the outside of commercially canned food. This can was sealed in a autoclave and thoroughly washed. Bears will separate cans of pickled items from other cans because they apparently don't like vinegar.
      Sounds like they have better sinuses can a dog.
      --
      "What do you mean its sunrise already ?!", me.

    • JimBlue wrote:

      Rasty wrote:

      max.patch wrote:

      this is from the link elf posted:

      "Bear-resistant canisters trap odors inside, eliminating the lure of food, and they are designed to be tamper-resistant against extreme force."

      i don't think that's true but i'm willing to be convinced otherwise.

      its my understanding that the bears can still smell food, they just can't get it. if they couldn't smell the food, then why would they waste their time trying to figure out how to get into the canister? and if the canisters trapped odors, then the tamper resistant technology could be reduced so that these things don't weigh 2+ pounds.
      A bear can smell food residue on the outside of commercially canned food. This can was sealed in a autoclave and thoroughly washed. Bears will separate cans of pickled items from other cans because they apparently don't like vinegar.
      Sounds like they have better sinuses can a dog.
      much better
      Sometimes you will never know the value of a moment until it becomes a memory.
      Dr. Seuss Cof123

    • Mountain-Mike wrote:

      SarcasmTheElf wrote:

      OzJacko wrote:

      Expect it to become a rule for various sections as the ATC and the Forest Service seek to deter numbers in subtle ways.
      To quote LW, tear down the shelters in the southernmost section.
      Just let the Rangers use live ammo during their training there.
      On hikers, not bears, right? :P PooFan
      Do your duty in all things. You cannot do more, you should never wish to do less. - Robert E. Lee

    • We'd get a tin of popcorn for x-mas, (the kind with three varieties) regular, cheese and caramel. We noticed he liked cheese better, so once I did thee ole shell game with him. I'd put a piece of each under some plastic cups, and without fail he'd always pick the cheese flavored, but that's not to say he wouldn't eat the other two also, but he'd always eat the cheese one first.

    • max.patch wrote:

      this is the 5th and final year that this regulation is effective. it is applicable from 3/1 to 6/1. i would expect that something like this will be renewed before next season, although the specific area may or may not be changed.

      i have said for the past few years years that i believe the ultimate solution will be the addition of bear boxes to each shelter in georgia, with the requirement that bear cannisters be used if not staying at a shelter. it is my understanding -- although i haven't seen it with my own eyes yet -- that a bear box will be placed at the new campsites S of the the hawk mountain shelter as an experiment.
      The main problem with bear boxes is misuse. They become very large, convenient trash cans. You are right. There are actually 3 bear boxes around the Hawk Mt. Shelter/campsite.

      max.patch wrote:

      TW certainly knows more about this than i do, but it is my understanding that when the hawk mountain shelter reaches capacity the hawk mountain caretaker will move to the camp site location to direct hikers there and will be able to instruct hikers on proper use of the bear box.
      Yes, although I believe they're planning to try to fill the campsite first. It's 0.5 miles south of the Hawk Mt. Shelter. There will be a caretaker in the Hawk Mt. area through May.

      SarcasmTheElf wrote:

      twistwrist wrote:

      Did you guys know that this year, the ATC is requiring bear canisters between Jarrard Gap and Neel Gap? They are also strongly recommending them from Springer to Damascus.
      Those things are heavy! But they do make a nice chair. ;) What are your thoughts on bear canisters?
      I'm off to my last 2 days of training. Hitting the field Thursday!

      appalachiantrail.org/home/explore-the-trail/trail-updates
      Clarity - One minor correction, the ATC doesn't make the rules, the U.S. forest service does. I think it's important to make that distinction clear when explaining the rules so that people don't think the ATC is creating restrictions or fining people.
      Here is the link to the actual order.
      fs.usda.gov/detail/conf/news-events/?cid=stelprdb5351877
      Yeah, I understand the ATC isn't part of the legislative branch of the AT. ;) Nor do its employees have any executive powers. However, the ATC is working along with the USFS and it is actually the FS that has deemed the canisters required. Yes, canisters have been "required" in that short stretch for a few years I believe, but now they're even recommended all the way up to Damascus (ironically in the section of trail I never saw a single bit of evidence of bears....but I was walking through it in the cool weather too, so maybe that's why). appalachiantrail.org/home/explore-the-trail/trail-updates

      PaulMags wrote:

      so this advisory is strictly oral and not written down yet? I'm not trying to be a smart ass, just trying to sort it out. And is it a Bear Resistant Food Container they are suggesting or a bear canister specifically? (Denali NP, for example, calls them BRFC and lets you use an Urscak OR a canister)
      I believe so, though some of our training documents had the recommendation in writing. I'll have to see if I can locate any kind of public announcement. It is my understanding that this long distance recommendation is new this year.
      www.appalachiantrailclarity.com - Life on the A.T.

      Sometimes you find yourself in the middle of nowhere, and sometimes in the middle of nowhere, you find yourself.

    • socks wrote:

      We'd get a tin of popcorn for x-mas, (the kind with three varieties) regular, cheese and caramel. We noticed he liked cheese better, so once I did thee ole shell game with him. I'd put a piece of each under some plastic cups, and without fail he'd always pick the cheese flavored, but that's not to say he wouldn't eat the other two also, but he'd always eat the cheese one first.
      I bet you could do that with JimmyJam using beer, he'd go to a certain brand first but he'd drink them all.
      I may grow old but I'll never grow up.

    • A business opportunity for someone, perhaps a shuttle service. Provide a BC for the duration of the required areas with a collection point. The renter provides a deposit via a credit card with refund upon return.

      The stumbling block of course is the collection point and subsequent return of the BC to the starting point.

      Lest we forget.....


      SSgt Ray Rangel - USAF
      SrA Elizabeth Loncki - USAF
      PFC Adam Harris - USA
      MSgt Eden Pearl - USMC

    • Dan76 wrote:

      A business opportunity for someone, perhaps a shuttle service. Provide a BC for the duration of the required areas with a collection point. The renter provides a deposit via a credit card with refund upon return.

      The stumbling block of course is the collection point and subsequent return of the BC to the starting point.
      you can (at least thru last season; i haven't checked this year) rent a bear canister from the country store near woody gap and drop it off at mountain crossings. ya rarely read or hear anyone mention this; almost certainly as its easier to just not sleep in the 5 mile restricted area.

      if springer-damascus ever became a requirement i'd certainly buy one. those who live in another area of the country for which the AT is a one shot deal would probably be best served to buy and sell used on ebay rather than rent. as far as rentals, i'm sure the outfitters in damascus would offer a rental deal.
      2,000 miler

    • I am leery of anyone calling themselves an expert. Experienced? Knowledgeable? Good instructor? Sure...

      Expert? Sounds like some internet wankery.

      Also, if allowed, I think Ursacks are a superior solution to bear canisters IMO. 7 oz, more pliable, takes up less space and recognized as effective by the IGBC. No need to hang either. Just tie off to a stout branch *AWAY* from the campsite.

    • I do not know if all bear canisters are like this, but my Bearikade is at least oder resistant. The end openings have ''O' rings that form a tight seal. In fact when I pack my Bearikade in town at low elevation, and open it up later that day at high elevation it 'pops' from the release of pressure like a can of soda.

      That said, I do not think the 'oder resistance' matters that much to the bears in Yosemite. They already seem to associate canisters with food. At camp one night all the campers in the area were instructed by a ranger to collectively tie their canisters together to a tree because of a particularly aggressive problem bear. Sure enough, the bear came and raided their canisters for the next several jours despite their defenses. They made noise, threw rocks, but the bears were persistent. One hiker's canister was carried away. It was found and retrieved the next day, still unopened.

      I was off hiking Half Dome that evening, so I missed all the fun. When I finally returned around midnight y wife was just wide eyed with excitement from her experience battling the bears (mother and adolescent cub). She had sticks and rocks all lined up in front of our tent ready to defend against the next incursion. She is my mountain woman, not! :) When I went to fall asleep she said "How can you sleep when the bear is still out there?" I said, "I have nothing to worry about, I have you here to protect me."

      I slept. She stood guard. Myself, I never did get to see a bear in Yosimite :(
      “Of all sad words of tongue or pen,
      the saddest are these, 'It might have been.”

      John Greenleaf Whittier

    • PaulMags wrote:

      I am leery of anyone calling themselves an expert. Experienced? Knowledgeable? Good instructor? Sure...

      Expert? Sounds like some internet wankery.

      Also, if allowed, I think Ursacks are a superior solution to bear canisters IMO. 7 oz, more pliable, takes up less space and recognized as effective by the IGBC. No need to hang either. Just tie off to a stout branch *AWAY* from the campsite.
      I don't have an Ursack, but I like the idea.

      I have been watching survival "experts" on TV head out into the wilds, struggle to find food, and come back much lighter. I would rather learn something from Mick Dodge, if he was willing to teach me.
      I am human and I need to be loved - just like everybody else does

    • IMScotty wrote:




      I was off hiking Half Dome that evening, so I missed all the fun. When I finally returned around midnight y wife was just wide eyed with excitement from her experience battling the bears (mother and adolescent cub). She had sticks and rocks all lined up in front of our tent ready to defend against the next incursion. She is my mountain woman, not! :) When I went to fall asleep she said "How can you sleep when the bear is still out there?" I said, "I have nothing to worry about, I have you here to protect me."

      I slept. She stood guard. Myself, I never did get to see a bear in Yosimite :(
      My kind of woman. By chance does she have a sister?

      Lest we forget.....


      SSgt Ray Rangel - USAF
      SrA Elizabeth Loncki - USAF
      PFC Adam Harris - USA
      MSgt Eden Pearl - USMC

    • Drybones wrote:

      socks wrote:

      We'd get a tin of popcorn for x-mas, (the kind with three varieties) regular, cheese and caramel. We noticed he liked cheese better, so once I did thee ole shell game with him. I'd put a piece of each under some plastic cups, and without fail he'd always pick the cheese flavored, but that's not to say he wouldn't eat the other two also, but he'd always eat the cheese one first.
      I bet you could do that with JimmyJam using beer, he'd go to a certain brand first but he'd drink them all.
      I knew I liked that guy for a reason. ;) Cheers, JJ!

      max.patch wrote:

      Dan76 wrote:

      A business opportunity for someone, perhaps a shuttle service. Provide a BC for the duration of the required areas with a collection point. The renter provides a deposit via a credit card with refund upon return.

      The stumbling block of course is the collection point and subsequent return of the BC to the starting point.
      you can (at least thru last season; i haven't checked this year) rent a bear canister from the country store near woody gap and drop it off at mountain crossings. ya rarely read or hear anyone mention this; almost certainly as its easier to just not sleep in the 5 mile restricted area.
      if springer-damascus ever became a requirement i'd certainly buy one. those who live in another area of the country for which the AT is a one shot deal would probably be best served to buy and sell used on ebay rather than rent. as far as rentals, i'm sure the outfitters in damascus would offer a rental deal.
      Dan, a business opportunity...what a great idea!

      PaulMags wrote:

      I am leery of anyone calling themselves an expert. Experienced? Knowledgeable? Good instructor? Sure...

      Expert? Sounds like some internet wankery.

      Also, if allowed, I think Ursacks are a superior solution to bear canisters IMO. 7 oz, more pliable, takes up less space and recognized as effective by the IGBC. No need to hang either. Just tie off to a stout branch *AWAY* from the campsite.
      I was a bit shocked about it, but at the Protecting the A.T Experience workshop, it was stated that Ursacks are not an acceptable method...bear canisters only.
      www.appalachiantrailclarity.com - Life on the A.T.

      Sometimes you find yourself in the middle of nowhere, and sometimes in the middle of nowhere, you find yourself.

    • Dan76 wrote:

      IMScotty wrote:

      I was off hiking Half Dome that evening, so I missed all the fun. When I finally returned around midnight y wife was just wide eyed with excitement from her experience battling the bears (mother and adolescent cub). She had sticks and rocks all lined up in front of our tent ready to defend against the next incursion. She is my mountain woman, not! :) When I went to fall asleep she said "How can you sleep when the bear is still out there?" I said, "I have nothing to worry about, I have you here to protect me."

      I slept. She stood guard. Myself, I never did get to see a bear in Yosimite :(
      My kind of woman. By chance does she have a sister?
      Ha, two other sisters. All taken I am afraid.
      “Of all sad words of tongue or pen,
      the saddest are these, 'It might have been.”

      John Greenleaf Whittier

    • Mountain-Mike wrote:

      I wonder why Ursasack isn't an option. I have seen it isn't in several areas. I believe PCT section that requires a bear cannister also. Anyone know why?
      i don't "know" but i can make an educated guess.

      user error. bear cannister is idiot proof. anybody can screw a lid on a can. the ursack can be defeated if you have too much food it in, don't tie the proper knot, and probably a few other things.

      as a believer in murphys law, if i'm worried about bears i'm using a cannister.
      2,000 miler

    • PaulMags wrote:

      Yet they are approved for use with grizzly bears in Denali. Go figure.
      Hey! If you go here: appalachiantrail.org/home/expl…y-thru-hiker-registration

      and click "register", read the info at the top for ATC's recommendation of bear canisters. It states: "ATC strongly recommends use of a BEAR CANISTER for food storage for all overnight hikes on the A.T. in GA, NC &TN. We also request that you view our new, funny, A.T. specific Leave No Trace videos @ goo.gl/wzFLsC"
      www.appalachiantrailclarity.com - Life on the A.T.

      Sometimes you find yourself in the middle of nowhere, and sometimes in the middle of nowhere, you find yourself.

    • max.patch wrote:

      Mountain-Mike wrote:

      I wonder why Ursasack isn't an option. I have seen it isn't in several areas. I believe PCT section that requires a bear cannister also. Anyone know why?
      i don't "know" but i can make an educated guess.
      user error. bear cannister is idiot proof. anybody can screw a lid on a can. the ursack can be defeated if you have too much food it in, don't tie the proper knot, and probably a few other things.

      as a believer in murphys law, if i'm worried about bears i'm using a cannister.
      I read a longwinded article about it some years ago. The short answer (if I correctly recall) is that an older version of the ursak failed field tests carried out by the various management agencies. The company then went back and redesigned the whole thing but by the time their final version was complete the agency in charge of the trials was largely defunct and no longer doing testing. Since then it's been a losing fight to get the various land management to re-text and approve it.

      The other big obstacle they have is that some agencies don't like them because if a bear attacks them for a prolonged amount of time a small amount of crumbs/bear saliva can permeate the cloth and some officials consider that enough of a "reward" to cause problems.
      Dogs are excellent judges of character, this fact goes a long way toward explaining why some people don't like being around them.

    • my prediction, made when the bear canister regulation was first enacted, was that at some point all the shelters in GA would have bear boxes and when that eventually happened then bear canisters would be required for anyone not camping at or near the shelter and utilizing the boxes.

      the bear canister requirement in GA has now expired. as it was only a 5 mile section it was easy to work around. i have no doubt that a new law will be enacted before next spring. the questions -- will it be in a different location AND will it be longer than 5 miles. not a prediction, but it wouldn't surprise me if they made the distance longer and then monitored compliance. woody to neels would be a possibility as the infrastructure exists to rent -- pickup and return -- in that section.
      2,000 miler

    • PaulMags wrote:

      Since land management agencies are generally conservative, I suspect that bear *canisters* will be required on the first 450 miles on the AT in the near future.

      So it goes.

      Hell, Canyonlands NP (red rock desert) requires them now. Yeesh....
      It seems like the sort of problem that would have take care of itself by now. I know some good-ol-boys in Georgia. I keep telling them that there are easy to find bears in that area (hunting is legal in most of the GA section), but none of them want to drag a bear down the side of Blood Mountain. :whistling:
      Dogs are excellent judges of character, this fact goes a long way toward explaining why some people don't like being around them.

    • I am not familiar with the instructions that come with an Ursak. Tying the cord around the sack near the opening ought to prevent crumbs from falling out, and rain from getting in.

      Someone with a drawstring stuff sack complained about rain getting in on my last section hike. I showed him how to tie the drawstring around the sack to prevent that. It can also raise the bottom of the sack a few more inches.
      I am human and I need to be loved - just like everybody else does

    • SarcasmTheElf wrote:

      PaulMags wrote:

      Since land management agencies are generally conservative, I suspect that bear *canisters* will be required on the first 450 miles on the AT in the near future.

      So it goes.

      Hell, Canyonlands NP (red rock desert) requires them now. Yeesh....
      It seems like the sort of problem that would have take care of itself by now. I know some good-ol-boys in Georgia. I keep telling them that there are easy to find bears in that area (hunting is legal in most of the GA section), but none of them want to drag a bear down the side of Blood Mountain. :whistling:
      most of the good ol' boys are more interested in bambi.
      2,000 miler

    • max.patch wrote:

      SarcasmTheElf wrote:

      PaulMags wrote:

      Since land management agencies are generally conservative, I suspect that bear *canisters* will be required on the first 450 miles on the AT in the near future.

      So it goes.

      Hell, Canyonlands NP (red rock desert) requires them now. Yeesh....
      It seems like the sort of problem that would have take care of itself by now. I know some good-ol-boys in Georgia. I keep telling them that there are easy to find bears in that area (hunting is legal in most of the GA section), but none of them want to drag a bear down the side of Blood Mountain. :whistling:
      most of the good ol' boys are more interested in bambi.
      edit-probably :) not appropriate in this forum.
      2,000 miler

      The post was edited 1 time, last by max.patch ().

    • max.patch wrote:

      SarcasmTheElf wrote:

      I know we're known for thread drift, but wow, just wow...
      i think mr. elf might have seen my self deleted post. :)
      Correct, now I'm hoping you didn't see my original response... at first I didn't realize this was a public thread. :D
      Dogs are excellent judges of character, this fact goes a long way toward explaining why some people don't like being around them.

    • PaulMags wrote:

      Since land management agencies are generally conservative, I suspect that bear *canisters* will be required on the first 450 miles on the AT in the near future.

      So it goes.

      Hell, Canyonlands NP (red rock desert) requires them now. Yeesh....
      I probably have a canister in my future. New York requires one in the eastern zone of High Peaks Wilderness and "strongly recommends" them in all Wilderness, Wild Forest, Canoe and Primitive areas. (And you can't use a BearVault. The genius bears of High Peaks Wilderness know how to open one.)
      I'm not lost. I know where I am. I'm right here.

    • TrafficJam wrote:

      In places where bear canisters are required for food, are other "smellables" also required to be in a canister? Things like toothpaste, lip balm, Dr Bronners?
      the (now expired but imo certain to be renewed with possible location changes) georgia AT regulation specifically stated "food, food containers, garbage, and toiletries".
      2,000 miler