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    • SarcasmTheElf wrote:

      Drybones wrote:

      SarcasmTheElf wrote:

      To he clear, I am certainly not talking about carrying a .380 for defense from bears. If bears were a concern, I'd have this with me...



      Which piece do you hit him with?


      That depends on whether or not the bayonet is mounted. 8o

      Fortunately after 45 min of trying and a couple of youtube instructional videos I am happy to report that it is all back together.


      I am not an expert on guns, but I would always recommend assembling them without a bayonet mounted. :D
      The road to glory cannot be followed with much baggage.
      Richard Ewell, CSA General

    • WiseOldOwl wrote:

      BirdBrain wrote:

      WiseOldOwl wrote:


      I don't believe anyone is discussing LCP for bears... but OK

      I watched the video very carefully and the concept of the firearm and safety features were interesting. I am struggling with the loading and dont understand the draw and pull out the handle to get to the trigger.... I am thinking this is too small.


      Neither was I. I have a NAA-22MC-HG. Rugar makes the LCP.
      Nothing I can type will explain the operational features better than the video.
      Too small for what? This is a preference issue, just like carrying a Jetboil or a 7 gram eCHS.


      OK you flip it out like a knife to open, Nice! But when loading your fingers get right in front of the barrel to insert the pin. You have to cock it each shot? I am on my fourth video on this and found this..... would you say your experiences is better than this guy?



      Bullets are not bombs ready to explode on their own. It is actually quite difficult for one to go off. You need a well designed machine to make one go off. There is no more danger than putting your hands in front of a box of shells. The bullets are not dangerous just because they are in a cylinder. The danger comes when you pull back on the hammer. If you are concerned with a bullet going off on its own and/or putting any part of your body in front of a barrel, you should never conceal a weapon anywhere on your body. More important objects will be in front of said weapons. My weapon of choice has redundant safeties on it. The trigger is covered and the cylinder is positioned where it is impossible to engage a round. I have never been in a situation where I ever had to show anyone that I was carrying. No one has ever seen a weapon on me. I suspect I will never show such a weapon. If that ever happened, it will be within 20'. I am fully confident of hitting body mass at that distance. I do not believe I will ever be in a Rambo movie and need multiple magazines. I do not plan on ever using it for the reason I carry it. If it is ever used, I doubt I will ever fire more than 2 shots. I am not willing to carry anything larger. It is not for everyone. It is for me. There are much better choices... for other people. They should choose those superior weapons. I love my choice... for me. I cannot imagine anyone designing a better conceal carry weapon. If I ever see it, I will buy it.
      Non hikers are about a psi shy of a legal ball.

      The post was edited 7 times, last by BirdBrain ().

    • One more post on this subject and I will stop being me. I have strong feelings when it comes the well being of others. I do not have strong opinions as to what is right for others. That is their choice. I do have strong opinions when it comes to gun safety.

      Any reputable safety instructor will at some point talk about the fiddle factor of a pistol vs a revolver. People can start with pistols, but should be aware that revolvers have less fiddle factors. In crisis situations people forget how to operate pistols. They can't figure out why the trigger won't pull, because they forget where the safety is or that it is on. They pull with all their might thinking that will it work. They put their thumb in the path of the slide action. They forget how to reload. I have seen this demonstrated in safety courses.

      I am not saying revolvers are superior. They are not. I am not saying my weapon of choice is superior. It is not. My wife has 2 conceal carry weapons. She has a 9mm pistol and a 357 Magnum revolver. She feels my choice is a bad one. She is correct... for her.

      There are many questions a person needs to ask themselves before buying a weapon. Why am I buying this? Will I be willing to use this? Will I know how to use it when in a crisis situation? Will I be willing to carry it given the size of it? Have I had detailed training and practice to use one safely? If the answer to that last question is no... well... you don't want my opinion on that.

      Be safe guys. Please be safe.
      Non hikers are about a psi shy of a legal ball.

    • BirdBrain wrote:

      One more post on this subject and I will stop being me. I have strong feelings when it comes the well being of others. I do not have strong opinions as to what is right for others. That is their choice. I do have strong opinions when it comes to gun safety.

      Any reputable safety instructor will at some point talk about the fiddle factor of a pistol vs a revolver. People can start with pistols, but should be aware that revolvers have less fiddle factors. In crisis situations people forget how to operate pistols. They can't figure out why the trigger won't pull, because they forget where the safety is or that it is on. They pull with all their might thinking that will it work. They put their thumb in the path of the slide action. They forget how to reload. I have seen this demonstrated in safety courses.

      I am not saying revolvers are superior. They are not. I am not saying my weapon of choice is superior. It is not. My wife has 2 conceal carry weapons. She has a 9mm pistol and a 357 Magnum revolver. She feels my choice is a bad one. She is correct... for her.

      There are many questions a person needs to ask themselves before buying a weapon. Why am I buying this? Will I be willing to use this? Will I know how to use it when in a crisis situation? Will I be willing to carry it given the size of it? Have I had detailed training and practice to use one safely? If the answer to that last question is no... well... you don't want my opinion on that.

      Be safe guys. Please be safe.

      I agree. Revolvers won't and or will take quite a lot to cause them to jam. A semi auto is much more prone to jam and/or malfunction. Glocks, although a very good gun are known for the different kinds of malfunctions (stove piping) I feel , if I were to carry, and I don't, a hammerless snub nose revolver would be my choice. Wont snag on any thing and would be the most reliable, I think, in a long section or thru hike. Just my opinion.
      RIAP

    • BirdBrain wrote:



      Be safe guys. Please be safe.


      Well I wasn't questioning your personal choice or purchase. and if we were just talking around a campfire vs blogging we are misunderstanding each other... I am glad you are happy with your choice... I don't own a gun. I was asking you to review the video and ask if you are experiencing the same issues as the tester with your hand gun.
      1. He doesn't demonstrate the cool flip out on the Handle that most would miss on first look.
      2. He claims a very over the top loud report on using a small bullet
      3. He cant hit a target well at 8 yards and is low... (can be overcome by practice)
      4. We know from direct evidence what happened to a important person when the same bullets and small hand gun was used. (stopping power)


      It was a simple inquiry on your experiences at the range. I was asking to gain some knowledge from you. I do like what you have written so far.
      Be wise enough to walk away from the nonsense around you! :thumbup:

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Wise Old Owl ().

    • While I am waiting on the above posts... I will share where my research has taken me. I have no problem with the licensing and other factors - and plan to take NRA safety courses and a home safe, to be disguised as a piece of working furniture. I doubt I will be taking it on the trail.

      After reading about the Kel Tec's bad rap on jamming.. and watching videos that claim its operator error as well as cleaning... I don't know what to make of this American made gun. I am sure the manufacturer has made changes to overcome the objection, perhaps its due to folks that feel other well established manufactures are better.

      I am looking at the Ruger LCP 380ACP center fire w lazer

      CLICK

      I kind of wish it had the longer hand grip but this will do.
      Be wise enough to walk away from the nonsense around you! :thumbup:

    • WOO, ruger makes an extended 7 round mag for the LCP that lengthens the grip by about half an inch. It makes a big difference and improves the grip if you have a larger hand.
      Dogs are excellent judges of character, this fact goes a long way toward explaining why some people don't like being around them.

    • WiseOldOwl wrote:


      I don't own a gun.


      All I am saying if I am saying anything is that safe practices and informed choices on conceal carry weapons cannot be gained via reading ... including what I have for opinions. I was trained with a weapon at 7 years old. I shot my 1st deer at 10. I have been around and owned guns most of my life... and am still learning. That does not make my opinions superior to anyone. It does give me a basic understanding of the choices.

      There are many misconceptions with weapons and ammo. The biggest misconception is in caliber choice. The superior round is the one you can hit the target with and are willing to carry. If you cannot fire the weapon of choice in an emergency, then it is irrelevant how superior the weapon or ammo is. If you are unwilling to carry the weapon because of size, it is irrelevant how much better it would perform. I cannot count the people I know who have incredible weapons with great reviews that do not carry said weapon because of its size. Every single one of those people swore they would carry it until they bought it. All of these people bought their weapon because of reviews that emphasized stopping power over the things I am stating. There are many people who are well trained that carry much larger weapons. their choice is superior to mine for them. I am not willing to carry such a large weapon. Therefore, their choice is wrong for me.

      Let me review. My weapon of choice will do the job and I am willing to carry it. It is not as powerful as the weapons other people advocate but are unwilling to carry because of size and are unfamiliar enough to use effectively if they needed it.
      Non hikers are about a psi shy of a legal ball.

    • A.T.Lt wrote:

      BirdBrain wrote:

      One more post on this subject and I will stop being me. I have strong feelings when it comes the well being of others. I do not have strong opinions as to what is right for others. That is their choice. I do have strong opinions when it comes to gun safety.

      Any reputable safety instructor will at some point talk about the fiddle factor of a pistol vs a revolver. People can start with pistols, but should be aware that revolvers have less fiddle factors. In crisis situations people forget how to operate pistols. They can't figure out why the trigger won't pull, because they forget where the safety is or that it is on. They pull with all their might thinking that will it work. They put their thumb in the path of the slide action. They forget how to reload. I have seen this demonstrated in safety courses.

      I am not saying revolvers are superior. They are not. I am not saying my weapon of choice is superior. It is not. My wife has 2 conceal carry weapons. She has a 9mm pistol and a 357 Magnum revolver. She feels my choice is a bad one. She is correct... for her.

      There are many questions a person needs to ask themselves before buying a weapon. Why am I buying this? Will I be willing to use this? Will I know how to use it when in a crisis situation? Will I be willing to carry it given the size of it? Have I had detailed training and practice to use one safely? If the answer to that last question is no... well... you don't want my opinion on that.

      Be safe guys. Please be safe.

      I agree. Revolvers won't and or will take quite a lot to cause them to jam. A semi auto is much more prone to jam and/or malfunction. Glocks, although a very good gun are known for the different kinds of malfunctions (stove piping) I feel , if I were to carry, and I don't, a hammerless snub nose revolver would be my choice. Wont snag on any thing and would be the most reliable, I think, in a long section or thru hike. Just my opinion.



      I had an auto jam/misfire on me once. I kept it pointed away from me and after about 30 seconds it fired on its own. I never shot that auto again and properly disposed of it. I have been leery of autos ever since and as a result I only carry revolvers.
      "Dazed and Confused"
      Recycle, re-use, re-purpose
      Plant a tree
      Take a kid hiking
      Make a difference

    • Another misconception is that lady's should carry tiny weapons. I believe the opposite is true. In general, women need a greater ability to gain an advantage than men. In our family that cutoff is at 9mm. We believe a 380 is insufficient protection for women. A 380 is fine for a man because in general they do not require as much power in a weapon to gain an advantage. Still the 380 is marketed as a women's weapon. They even come in pink. I believe such marketing borders on irresponsibility.

      Still another misconception is on what is best for home defense. I have listened to many proclaim that their Glock is too big for carry, but is great for home defense. Many just want that big tough handgun. Each will have to decide for themselves, but I find it hard to beat semiautomatic 12 gauge shotguns.
      Non hikers are about a psi shy of a legal ball.

    • BirdBrain wrote:

      Another misconception is that lady's should carry tiny weapons. I believe the opposite is true. In general, women need a greater ability to gain an advantage than men. In our family that cutoff is at 9mm. We believe a 380 is insufficient protection for women. A 380 is fine for a man because in general they do not require as much power in a weapon to gain an advantage. Still the 380 is marketed as a women's weapon. They even come in pink. I believe such marketing borders on irresponsibility.

      Still another misconception is on what is best for home defense. I have listened to many proclaim that their Glock is too big for carry, but is great for home defense. Many just want that big tough handgun. Each will have to decide for themselves, but I find it hard to beat semiautomatic 12 gauge shotguns.



      I'm in the 12 ga home defense group, dbl barrel with 3" magnums and a 12 ga 2-3/4" auto.
      "Dazed and Confused"
      Recycle, re-use, re-purpose
      Plant a tree
      Take a kid hiking
      Make a difference

    • jimmyjam wrote:

      Wasn't reloaded ammo, it was a cheap auto, 25 cal. saturday night special type.

      That'll do it too. I had a Tec9 that was converted over to full auto that didn't even like factory ammo such as Federal. It had to have NATO military grade ammo in order to fire correctly. I had 4 - 36 round clips. It was a fun gun but it was 15 bucks every time I pulled the trigger. I finally traded it for a S&W Model 29. Now that's a fun gun. I've got a few fun guns. Ah hell - they're all fun.
      Changes Daily→ ♪♫♪♫♪♫♪♫ ♪♫♪♫♪♫ ← Don't blame me. It's That Lonesome Guitar.

    • jimmyjam wrote:

      BirdBrain wrote:

      Another misconception is that lady's should carry tiny weapons. I believe the opposite is true. In general, women need a greater ability to gain an advantage than men. In our family that cutoff is at 9mm. We believe a 380 is insufficient protection for women. A 380 is fine for a man because in general they do not require as much power in a weapon to gain an advantage. Still the 380 is marketed as a women's weapon. They even come in pink. I believe such marketing borders on irresponsibility.

      Still another misconception is on what is best for home defense. I have listened to many proclaim that their Glock is too big for carry, but is great for home defense. Many just want that big tough handgun. Each will have to decide for themselves, but I find it hard to beat semiautomatic 12 gauge shotguns.



      I'm in the 12 ga home defense group, dbl barrel with 3" magnums and a 12 ga 2-3/4" auto.

      Me too. I keep mine under the edge of the bed where all I got to do is drop my arm and there she is. (All my guns have girls names) It's a Remington 870 12 gauge with a pistol grip, 20 in barrel, 8 round magazine extension, red laser sight and a 10,000 candle power flashlight mounted. Another fun gun. Probably my "funnest". It kicks like a mule and shoots out 3 foot flames in the dark. Her name is Rebecca. I call her Becky for short. Sometimes she can be such a bitch. :)
      Changes Daily→ ♪♫♪♫♪♫♪♫ ♪♫♪♫♪♫ ← Don't blame me. It's That Lonesome Guitar.

    • Im a .38 and 9mm devotee. I like the .40 and LOVE the .45 1911. But for personal carry and defense I think nothing beats the 9. You can carry more ammo, you have better recover time after shooting and its just a good versatile round. The USMC special forces just switched to the Glock Model 19 9mm.
      RIAP

    • jimmyjam wrote:

      BirdBrain wrote:

      Another misconception is that lady's should carry tiny weapons. I believe the opposite is true. In general, women need a greater ability to gain an advantage than men. In our family that cutoff is at 9mm. We believe a 380 is insufficient protection for women. A 380 is fine for a man because in general they do not require as much power in a weapon to gain an advantage. Still the 380 is marketed as a women's weapon. They even come in pink. I believe such marketing borders on irresponsibility.

      Still another misconception is on what is best for home defense. I have listened to many proclaim that their Glock is too big for carry, but is great for home defense. Many just want that big tough handgun. Each will have to decide for themselves, but I find it hard to beat semiautomatic 12 gauge shotguns.



      I'm in the 12 ga home defense group, dbl barrel with 3" magnums and a 12 ga 2-3/4" auto.
      Coach Gun with an 18" barrel is pretty sweet too.

    • A.T.Lt wrote:

      Im a .38 and 9mm devotee. I like the .40 and LOVE the .45 1911. But for personal carry and defense I think nothing beats the 9. You can carry more ammo, you have better recover time after shooting and its just a good versatile round. The USMC special forces just switched to the Glock Model 19 9mm.
      a double tap never hurts either...well not the shooter anyway.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Socks ().

    • Marketing of the .380 for the ladies?

      My auntie had a .25 ACP Baby Browning - which is a pretty pitiful gun for stopping power. But when she went to the range with my uncle's .357 she found that she couldn't aim consistently with it. The kickback always had her shooting high and to the left. She was a keen shot with the lighter weapon. I think that a .380 might have been just the ticket for her.

      Even most of the family didn't know she had a .25 auto in her purse. She never, ever discussed carrying. When she started losing her marbles, my brother found himself with the task of collecting the hardware, and even he didn't know about it until I told him. (He'd alrdady picked up the .30-06, the .22, the 12-gauge, the 20-gauge, and the .357. I also had remembered Uncle having a big-ass 10-gauge, but brother told me he'd sold that.)

      And it's none of your business what is or isn't in my pack.
      I'm not lost. I know where I am. I'm right here.

    • Despite the fact that I'm carrying one as I write this, I do have serious concerns about the effectiveness of .380auto due to it's relative lack of penetration and stopping power. I have friends and relatives who have been trying to get me to sell the thing and upgrade to a 9mm at minimum. One uncle who is a former LEO has seen people walk away after getting hit with a .380, he has also put several rounds of it into a raccoon and had it survive.
      Several very experienced folks I know actually recommend .22lr or .22mag for self defense over .380, .32, or .25 because the relatively deep penetration of the .22 combined with it's tendancy to tumble make it a surprisingly effective round for self defense, and it's light weight and miniscule recoul make it very easy to use accurately in an emergency situation.
      Dogs are excellent judges of character, this fact goes a long way toward explaining why some people don't like being around them.

    • Kevin, it IS my business what's in your pack, but only because in the event of an emergency I need to know where your PLB is when we're hiking together. :D
      Dogs are excellent judges of character, this fact goes a long way toward explaining why some people don't like being around them.

    • socks wrote:

      @ Elf...meant to quote ya...

      aye, thee ole M-1 Garand???


      Pregzactly! And a beautiful one at that...I wanted a garand since I was 10 and picked that one up years ago. I hope to get another one in .30-06 and eventually a .308 "tanker" garand as well.
      Dogs are excellent judges of character, this fact goes a long way toward explaining why some people don't like being around them.

    • WiseOldOwl wrote:

      BirdBrain wrote:

      WiseOldOwl wrote:


      I don't believe anyone is discussing LCP for bears... but OK

      I watched the video very carefully and the concept of the firearm and safety features were interesting. I am struggling with the loading and dont understand the draw and pull out the handle to get to the trigger.... I am thinking this is too small.


      Neither was I. I have a NAA-22MC-HG. Rugar makes the LCP.
      Nothing I can type will explain the operational features better than the video.
      Too small for what? This is a preference issue, just like carrying a Jetboil or a 7 gram eCHS.


      OK you flip it out like a knife to open, Nice! But when loading your fingers get right in front of the barrel to insert the pin. You have to cock it each shot? I am on my fourth video on this and found this..... would you say your experiences is better than this guy?

      Not a very good review as anyone dispatching animals at 16 yards needs to go back to trappin' school. and the fingers in front of the barrel to re-engage the cylinder pin is a non-sequitur, as your carrying the thing around anyway, so whats the difference...I like the little firearm! it's cool.

    • SarcasmTheElf wrote:

      Despite the fact that I'm carrying one as I write this, I do have serious concerns about the effectiveness of .380auto due to it's relative lack of penetration and stopping power. I have friends and relatives who have been trying to get me to sell the thing and upgrade to a 9mm at minimum. One uncle who is a former LEO has seen people walk away after getting hit with a .380, he has also put several rounds of it into a raccoon and had it survive.
      Several very experienced folks I know actually recommend .22lr or .22mag for self defense over .380, .32, or .25 because the relatively deep penetration of the .22 combined with it's tendancy to tumble make it a surprisingly effective round for self defense, and it's light weight and miniscule recoul make it very easy to use accurately in an emergency situation.


      I was not going to bring the comparisons of 22 Magnum to other rounds up to 380. But since you did, I agree with your assessment. I will add a couple things. Many prefer a center fire over the rim fire. Also, a 22 Magnum suffers performance as the barrel gets shorter. That is why I have the 1 5/8 instead of the 1 1/8. There is a curve in performance as you approach 2". The performance gained in having a barrel over 2" is very marginal.

      Still, the ability to use the weapon safely in stressful situations, hit the target, and willingness to carry, are all infinitely more important than ballistics.
      Non hikers are about a psi shy of a legal ball.

    • Here's a very interesting article about the FBI's decision to go back to 9mm. It's well worth reading the whole thing, but the key points are:

      loadoutroom.com/12077/fbi-going-9mm-comes-science/

      1) Modern tactical ammuntion has basically evened the field between 9mm, .40s&w, and .45acp.

      2) Penetration depth is more important to neutralizing a target than the size of the bullet.

      3)LEO's miss between 70% and 80% of shots fired in real life situations.

      4)9mm can generally be fired more accurately, with less recoil by LEO's. Which make it more effective.
      Dogs are excellent judges of character, this fact goes a long way toward explaining why some people don't like being around them.

    • SarcasmTheElf wrote:

      Here's a very interesting article about the FBI's decision to go back to 9mm. It's well worth reading the whole thing, but the key points are:

      loadoutroom.com/12077/fbi-going-9mm-comes-science/

      1) Modern tactical ammuntion has basically evened the field between 9mm, .40s&w, and .45acp.

      2) Penetration depth is more important to neutralizing a target than the size of the bullet.

      3)LEO's miss between 70% and 80% of shots fired in real life situations.

      4)9mm can generally be fired more accurately, with less recoil by LEO's. Which make it more effective.

      Basically what I was referring to above as well.
      Also, most shoot outs (LEO related) from what I remember are within 8' of the LEO and perp
      RIAP

    • SarcasmTheElf wrote:

      Kevin, it IS my business what's in your pack, but only because in the event of an emergency I need to know where your PLB is when we're hiking together. :D


      And when we've been hiking together, I think you've seen virtually the entire contents of my pack. But I know you wouldn't tell anyone whose business it isn't. :)

      Am I to understand your remark as indicating that you'd go with me again? :)
      I'm not lost. I know where I am. I'm right here.

    • AnotherKevin wrote:

      SarcasmTheElf wrote:

      Kevin, it IS my business what's in your pack, but only because in the event of an emergency I need to know where your PLB is when we're hiking together. :D


      And when we've been hiking together, I think you've seen virtually the entire contents of my pack. But I know you wouldn't tell anyone whose business it isn't. :)

      Am I to understand your remark as indicating that you'd go with me again? :)
      The only reason we haven't yet gone again is that I have fairly major time constraints these days.
      Dogs are excellent judges of character, this fact goes a long way toward explaining why some people don't like being around them.

    • SarcasmTheElf wrote:

      I find that a German shepherd is best for home defense. Barring that, a 12 gauge is a good second option.



      I have two Dobermans, my wife commented today that her favorite dog moment was when she was in the back yard and a big black man came to the front of the house and asked if he could speak with her and started approaching, she slapped her side which was the signal for the dog to come and stand by her which he did, the guy said "that's okay mam" and left quickly.
      I may grow old but I'll never grow up.

    • Drybones wrote:

      SarcasmTheElf wrote:

      I find that a German shepherd is best for home defense. Barring that, a 12 gauge is a good second option.



      I have two Dobermans, my wife commented today that her favorite dog moment was when she was in the back yard and a big black man came to the front of the house and asked if he could speak with her and started approaching, she slapped her side which was the signal for the dog to come and stand by her which he did, the guy said "that's okay mam" and left quickly.


      Meanest dog I ever had was a little black and tan dachshund. Seriously. The dog was like a piranha.
      "Dazed and Confused"
      Recycle, re-use, re-purpose
      Plant a tree
      Take a kid hiking
      Make a difference

    • A.T.Lt wrote:

      SarcasmTheElf wrote:

      Here's a very interesting article about the FBI's decision to go back to 9mm. It's well worth reading the whole thing, but the key points are:

      loadoutroom.com/12077/fbi-going-9mm-comes-science/

      1) Modern tactical ammuntion has basically evened the field between 9mm, .40s&w, and .45acp.

      2) Penetration depth is more important to neutralizing a target than the size of the bullet.

      3)LEO's miss between 70% and 80% of shots fired in real life situations.

      4)9mm can generally be fired more accurately, with less recoil by LEO's. Which make it more effective.

      Basically what I was referring to above as well.
      Also, most shoot outs (LEO related) from what I remember are within 8' of the LEO and perp


      For those concerned with their ability to hit their target, laser sights work wonders. The bullet is going to hit where the dot is on the target. The presence of a red dot on a bad guy is an incredible deterrent by itself. I many cases the dot is enough to defuse the situation. After all, that should be the goal. If it can be done without firing a shot, much pain for all involved can be avoided.

      This topic has suffered from the usual drift. Circling back to the original topic and parameters of weight being a determinate factor, can anyone beat 8.05oz fully loaded for a conceal carry weapon? That is the weight of mine.
      Non hikers are about a psi shy of a legal ball.

    • BirdBrain wrote:

      A.T.Lt wrote:

      SarcasmTheElf wrote:

      Here's a very interesting article about the FBI's decision to go back to 9mm. It's well worth reading the whole thing, but the key points are:

      loadoutroom.com/12077/fbi-going-9mm-comes-science/

      1) Modern tactical ammuntion has basically evened the field between 9mm, .40s&w, and .45acp.

      2) Penetration depth is more important to neutralizing a target than the size of the bullet.

      3)LEO's miss between 70% and 80% of shots fired in real life situations.

      4)9mm can generally be fired more accurately, with less recoil by LEO's. Which make it more effective.

      Basically what I was referring to above as well.
      Also, most shoot outs (LEO related) from what I remember are within 8' of the LEO and perp


      For those concerned with their ability to hit their target, laser sights work wonders. The bullet is going to hit where the dot is on the target. The presence of a red dot on a bad guy is an incredible deterrent by itself. I many cases the dot is enough to defuse the situation. After all, that should be the goal. If it can be done without firing a shot, much pain for all involved can be avoided.

      This topic has suffered from the usual drift. Circling back to the original topic and parameters of weight being a determinate factor, can anyone beat 8.05oz fully loaded for a conceal carry weapon? That is the weight of mine.
      prolly a two shot derringer, but I need a little more to hold onto.

      check out the "Back Up" though heavier than 8.5 oz. holds a .410/9mm/.45acp

      bondarms.com/bond-arms-handguns/backup/

      The post was edited 3 times, last by Socks ().