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Baxter State Park observations on thru hiker behavior in the park

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    • Rasty wrote:

      max.patch wrote:

      just bill came up with something a day or so ago that makes no sense to solve the "problem" of too many hikers starting at springer.

      he wants to make everyone hike the approach trail, thus having everyone start at amicalola state park. after they buy their permit, they would be required to get educated at the park re trash, lnt, pooping, etc. before departing on their trip. to ensure that everyone starts from amicalola he wants "the road" to the springer parking lot gated thru june.

      i am not going to discuss his master plan to start at amicalola. i am only to discuss his plan to gated "the road" to springer. at least 2 other people have jumped on the gate the road bandwagon.

      there is not "a road" to springer. he is referring to usfs 42 from the elijay side. this road continues on to suches (approx mile 20) where it can also be accessed. but thats not all. going from memory and not looking at a map there are 5 other forest service roads that connect with usfs 42. these would all have to be gated.

      so where do we place the gates? can't just place the gate where the fs road starts off the pavement. there are houses on some of those roads.

      noontoola creek is one the most scenic and prime spots in georgia to fish for native (unstocked) trout. gating the fs roads will prohibit access to noontootla. trout season is georgia starts the last saturday in march.

      there is a church pavillion and cemetary just 100 yards from the trail at about mile 6. you gate the forest service roads then you remove access to the cemetary. i don't know, but would be willing to bet that it would be unlawful to deny the church access to their property.

      ok, so lets say the gate proponents make an exception to gating all the roads and allow fishermen access to noontootla and the church access to their property and gate at that point. at that point you are 4 easy trail miles from springer so what have you accomplished?

      why require people who want to hike the bmt to hike the approach trail to get there?

      but the biggest flaw in their plan to "gate the road" to springer t


      Remove most of the shelters and the problem will go away.


      I actually think the solution is more privies and more establshed campsites. I've hiked Southern Georgia twice, once in late may and once in October. Both times the trail itself was beautiful and thre was little sign if damage from "the bubble." If there really is an annual problem with the thru hikers hiking through (that was fun to write) then it's a problem lack of durable campsites and privies, add some more and a lot of the problem will go away.
      People complaining about 50 thru hikers a day!?! Bah! Harriman park and Bear mountain in CT each see hundreds of hikers on a nice weekend and those sections are doing just fine.

      Now about those hiker feeds... That's a situation where less of them would be beneficial.
      Dogs are excellent judges of character, this fact goes a long way toward explaining why some people don't like being around them.

    • getting rid of the shelters is a two edged sword. although i endorse the idea of dispersed camping, as the crowds grow might end up overrunning the woods. i agree with mp more privies,more established sites.one idea suggested was using the bmt as an alternate for the southern part to ease the strain. the bmt doesnt have enough established group sites to support the kind of numbers we're seeing on the at.it would change the nature of that trail to support the at? dont like that idea at all.
      its all good

    • Rasty wrote:

      hikerboy wrote:

      Rasty wrote:

      Not having shelters would scare off 60%+ of thru hikers.


      its not gonna happen though. shelters are too embedded in the culture of the trail,part of the original vision.


      I know I'd hike the PCT first if I have the chance.


      Even after "Wild" comes out?

      In a magic alternate life, I'd be hiking the CDT first.
      Dogs are excellent judges of character, this fact goes a long way toward explaining why some people don't like being around them.

    • Rasty wrote:

      milkman wrote:

      It's all the next generations fault. What they need is an adventure kit that would have got them started on the right foot.
      basspro.com/Bass-Pro-Shops-Nex…kpid=14062807214613_Black


      What is the compass for? Just dial 911 and ask them where you are


      The compass is for fitting into the convenient carry bag.
      Dogs are excellent judges of character, this fact goes a long way toward explaining why some people don't like being around them.

    • SarcasmTheElf wrote:

      Rasty wrote:

      hikerboy wrote:

      Rasty wrote:

      Not having shelters would scare off 60%+ of thru hikers.


      its not gonna happen though. shelters are too embedded in the culture of the trail,part of the original vision.


      I know I'd hike the PCT first if I have the chance.


      Even after "Wild" comes out?

      In a magic alternate life, I'd be hiking the CDT first.


      1) PCT
      2) Te Araroa
      3) Idaho Centennial Trail
      4) CDT
      5) AT MEGA
      Sometimes you will never know the value of a moment until it becomes a memory.
      Dr. Seuss Cof123

    • Rasty wrote:

      SarcasmTheElf wrote:

      Rasty wrote:

      hikerboy wrote:

      Rasty wrote:

      Not having shelters would scare off 60%+ of thru hikers.


      its not gonna happen though. shelters are too embedded in the culture of the trail,part of the original vision.


      I know I'd hike the PCT first if I have the chance.


      Even after "Wild" comes out?

      In a magic alternate life, I'd be hiking the CDT first.


      1) PCT
      2) Te Araroa
      3) Idaho Centennial Trail
      4) CDT
      5) AT MEGA


      Sign me up
      Dogs are excellent judges of character, this fact goes a long way toward explaining why some people don't like being around them.

    • hikerboy wrote:

      Rasty wrote:

      Not having shelters would scare off 60%+ of thru hikers.


      its not gonna happen though. shelters are too embedded in the culture of the trail,part of the original vision.


      I think the vision was a series of work, study, and farming camps. Not three sided rat boxes.
      The trail has never, or will never be what Mackeye proposed. He was way off.
      People wanted a wilderness trail. Need to quit hanging on to the flawed mackeye vision.

      The trail clubs built the shelters, they can remove them. Or better yet, gate them and lock them until after may 1.

    • muddywaters wrote:

      hikerboy wrote:

      Rasty wrote:

      Not having shelters would scare off 60%+ of thru hikers.


      its not gonna happen though. shelters are too embedded in the culture of the trail,part of the original vision.


      I think the vision was a series of work, study, and farming camps. Not three sided rat boxes.
      The trail has never, or will never be what Mackeye proposed. He was way off.
      People wanted a wilderness trail. Need to quit hanging on to the flawed mackeye vision.

      The trail clubs built the shelters, they can remove them. Or better yet, gate them and lock them until after may 1.


      Benton MacKaye was a visionary with more of a commune plan.
      I always related more to Myron Avery who built and and walked the trail. Always appreciated the pictures of him with his measuring wheel and his crew. Perhaps my favorite lawyer, I guess because instead of practicing law he spent his time out in the woods building and maintaining a trail.
      The road to glory cannot be followed with much baggage.
      Richard Ewell, CSA General

    • There are some ways to make the trail tougher, which might make people drop out faster. Increase the distance between shelters and ban camping away from shelters. Put the shelter far from the water source. Locate shelters on rocky ground to make tenting uncomfortable. Make it easier for mice to get into food bags by removing mouse hangers. Take away the tarps so the open side of the shelter cannot be closed off. Reroute the trail and ban hitch hiking to make resupply difficult. Ban fires to discourage night time socializing / partying.
      I am human and I need to be loved - just like everybody else does

    • WanderingStovie wrote:

      There are some ways to make the trail tougher, which might make people drop out faster. Increase the distance between shelters and ban camping away from shelters. Put the shelter far from the water source. Locate shelters on rocky ground to make tenting uncomfortable. Make it easier for mice to get into food bags by removing mouse hangers. Take away the tarps so the open side of the shelter cannot be closed off. Reroute the trail and ban hitch hiking to make resupply difficult. Ban fires to discourage night time socializing / partying.


      If Vandeventer and Helveys Mill were the first two shelters, after getting water there probably would be more than a few thinking forget this, I am heading back to the real word. ;)
      The road to glory cannot be followed with much baggage.
      Richard Ewell, CSA General

    • Rasty wrote:

      What is the compass for? Just dial 911 and ask them where you are


      Now let's not go encouraging people to call 911 for bogus reasons. 911 is only for calling to find out where the nearest pizza joint or AYCE restaurant is.
      Do your duty in all things. You cannot do more, you should never wish to do less. - Robert E. Lee

    • Rasty wrote:

      SarcasmTheElf wrote:

      Rasty wrote:

      hikerboy wrote:

      Rasty wrote:

      Not having shelters would scare off 60%+ of thru hikers.


      its not gonna happen though. shelters are too embedded in the culture of the trail,part of the original vision.


      I know I'd hike the PCT first if I have the chance.


      Even after "Wild" comes out?

      In a magic alternate life, I'd be hiking the CDT first.


      1) PCT
      2) Te Araroa
      3) Idaho Centennial Trail
      4) CDT
      5) AT MEGA


      Colorado Trail?
      I may grow old but I'll never grow up.

    • max.patch wrote:

      impossible for the atc to keep everybody happy.

      some people want to tear down all the shelters.

      others want to add solar electricity to the shelters and add outlets so as to be able to recharge devices.


      And they are nice people. Hung out a few hours there this summer in Harpers Ferry. Also got to meet Baltimore Jack (Tarlin) there, and had a nice little conversation.
      The road to glory cannot be followed with much baggage.
      Richard Ewell, CSA General

    • max.patch wrote:

      impossible for the atc to keep everybody happy.

      some people want to tear down all the shelters.

      others want to add solar electricity to the shelters and add outlets so as to be able to recharge devices.


      Add the solar and outlets, then tear down the shelters. Everyone's happy.

      Wait...
      Do your duty in all things. You cannot do more, you should never wish to do less. - Robert E. Lee

    • CoachLou wrote:

      max.patch wrote:

      impossible for the atc to keep everybody happy.

      some people want to tear down all the shelters.

      others want to add solar electricity to the shelters and add outlets so as to be able to recharge devices.





      You have to keep Rutherford Shelter...........the SAT tv is awesome gif.013.gif


      DirectTV or Dish Network?
      Sometimes you will never know the value of a moment until it becomes a memory.
      Dr. Seuss Cof123

    • Rasty wrote:

      CoachLou wrote:

      max.patch wrote:

      impossible for the atc to keep everybody happy.

      some people want to tear down all the shelters.

      others want to add solar electricity to the shelters and add outlets so as to be able to recharge devices.





      You have to keep Rutherford Shelter...........the SAT tv is awesome gif.013.gif


      DirectTV or Dish Network?


      Got up Sunday morning to find Dish no longer carries Fox News...I sent an E-mail to Joseph Clayton their CEO and let him know I was cancelling and where he could put the dish I have.
      I may grow old but I'll never grow up.

    • hikerboy wrote:



      new rule that goes into effect January 1st 2015
      wildnh.com/safe/hike_safe_card_FAQs.html

      Hike Safe Card FAQsA law passed in 2014 authorizes the New Hampshire Fish and Game Department to sell a voluntary hike safe card for $25 per person and $35 per family. People who obtain the cards will be helping to support Fish and Game search and rescue and will not be liable to repay rescue costs if they need to be rescued due to negligence on their part. People participating in hiking, biking, paddling, cross country skiing, rock climbing or other outdoor activities in New Hampshire may be interested in obtaining this annual card. An individual may still be liable for response expenses, however, if such person is deemed to have recklessly or to have intentionally created a situation requiring an emergency response.

      People who possess a current New Hampshire Fish and Game hunting or fishing license, or a current registration for an off-highway recreational vehicle, snowmobile or boat, will also be exempt from repaying rescue costs due to negligence.

      The law takes effect January 1, 2015.

      Frequently Asked Questions about the Hike Safe Card:Where can I buy the card?
      The card is available for purchase only at the N.H. Fish and Game Department’s online license sales site (wildnh.com). It is not available from license agents.

      Will there be a physical card that I can put in my wallet?
      No. The information can be printed out by the consumer at the time of purchase or may be downloaded as a pdf on a smart phone.

      How long is the card good for?
      The card covers the calendar year from the date and time of purchase through December 31.

      Is the card only for hikers?
      No. The card offers the same exemption from liability for rescue costs for individuals engaging in any outdoor activity, whether it is hiking, biking, canoeing, kayaking, cross country skiing, orienteering, trail running, bird watching, rock climbing or walking in the woods.

      Are there some situations in which hike safe card holders could still be charged for a search and rescue mission?
      Yes. A person may be liable for response expenses, if such personrecklessly or intentionally creates a situation requiring an emergency response.

      What is the difference between when someone is deemed to have acted negligently or recklessly?

      A person acts negligently when he or she acts in such a way that deviates from the way a reasonable person would act under similar circumstances.
      A person acts recklessly when he or she engages in highly unreasonable conduct, involving an extreme departure from ordinary care, in a situation where a high degree of danger is apparent.
      Does the full cost of the card go to the Search and Rescue Fund?
      Yes. Revenues from sales of the voluntary hike safe card will go into the Search and Rescue Fund, with the exception of the transaction fee (currently $3) that goes to the vendor of the automated issuance system to cover the cost of processing the information.

      Is there any other instance where I would be covered in the same way as if I bought the hike safe card?
      Yes. If a person has a current New Hampshire hunting or fishing license, current OHRV registration, current snowmobile registration, or current vessel (boat) registration, the person would receive the same benefits.

      What is considered a "family" for hike safe card purchases?
      For purposes of purchasing a hike safe card, families include the hike safe cardholder, his or her spouse, and his or her minor children and minor stepchildren as of the date of purchase.

      How much revenue is the card expected to generate annually?
      Since the card is voluntary, it is too soon to say how much revenue will be generated. Hike safe card sales will contribute some revenue to the Search and Rescue Fund going forward, which is an important start. Fish and Game also cannot estimate how much revenue might decrease as a result of the statutory elimination of the Department’s prior ability to pursue the reimbursement of costs resulting from the search and rescue of cardholders who would have been deemed negligent under prior law.

      How many search and rescue missions does Fish and Game conduct in an average year?
      In recent years (2011-2013), Fish and Game has conducted an average of about 180 search and rescue missions each year.

      Why is there a deficit in the Search and Rescue fund?
      The Search and Rescue fund is supported by a $1.00 fee collected for each boat, snowmobile and OHRV registered in New Hampshire. That typically brings in upwards of about $180,000 a year. In some years, annual Search and Rescue expenditures ($350,000+) have exceeded revenues by more than $200,000, causing a resulting deficit in the Fish and Game Fund.

      Will the hike safe card fees resolve Fish and Game’s broader funding troubles?
      The card is a step in the right direction, creating a means for the broader public that relies on Fish and Game services to help pay for those services, but it is not a cure-all. The deficit in the Search and Rescue Fund contributes to a much bigger funding dilemma Fish and Game faces. Without an additional revenue source or supplemental funding in the state budget, the Fish and Game Fund is expected to be depleted by the end of the current biennium (June 30, 2015). This would seriously compromise the Department’s ability to deliver essential fish, wildlife and boating access-related services to the public. Learn more about Fish and Game’s funding situation at wildnh.com/funding.

    • apparently its just not hikers who are entitled.

      listened to an alton brown and antonia lofaso podcast today and they were commenting on the current graduates from culinary school. alton brown said not only do they not have the skills that graduates 10 years had (and blamed that on the schools) but they enter the workforce with an entitled attitude. they graduate from culinary school and immediately print up business cards with "chef" before their name. both alton and antonia believe that all graduating from culinary school means is that you spent a period of time there. you are not a "chef" until you earn it.

      i just found it interesting that they both used the term "entitled" during the discussion.
      2,000 miler

    • max.patch wrote:

      apparently its just not hikers who are entitled.

      listened to an alton brown and antonia lofaso podcast today and they were commenting on the current graduates from culinary school. alton brown said not only do they not have the skills that graduates 10 years had (and blamed that on the schools) but they enter the workforce with an entitled attitude. they graduate from culinary school and immediately print up business cards with "chef" before their name. both alton and antonia believe that all graduating from culinary school means is that you spent a period of time there. you are not a "chef" until you earn it.

      i just found it interesting that they both used the term "entitled" during the discussion.


      In my graduating class of 72 culinary students only 5 of us had jobs out of school with chef as the title. The other four were in their mid thirties and had been in the business 10+ years. I was 21 and was going back to the club I worked at prior to school as a chef. The other 67 culinary grads were classified as line cooks and were making $10 per hour after spending $43k on culinary school.

      These guys are 100% correct that the grads are not chefs. They are 100% incorrect that it is something new. The average culinary school grad has always been a apprentice. The old chefs have been complaining about grads forever.
      Sometimes you will never know the value of a moment until it becomes a memory.
      Dr. Seuss Cof123

    • Rasty wrote:

      The other 67 culinary grads were classified as line cooks and were making $10 per hour after spending $43k on culinary school.



      that is similar to what antonia lofaso said. she graduated culinary school and had an offer at a hotel for $12 an hour or working under wolfgang puck for $6 an hour. she chose wolfgang because she knew she could learn more. her dad said she was crazy. dad has since changed his mind.
      2,000 miler

    • Rasty wrote:

      max.patch wrote:


      . The average culinary school grad has always been a apprentice. The old chefs have been complaining about grads forever.


      It's that way in many industries. Same thing in aircraft maintenance. Once a person goes to school for 18-24 months and then passes the written, oral, and practical tests required by the Federal Aviation Agency they receive their mechanic's license. Once they are lucky enough to get hired someplace there's a lot more learning to do. The company has to invest a lot of time and energy on a new hire with no guarantee that it will pay off. Some make it, and some don't.