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Being Safe on the AT - Weapon Safety

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    • SarcasmTheElf wrote:

      I'm a little confused when you say lead is banned at the range. Do you mean full lead wad-cutters are banned? Are standard lead core FMJ and JHP rounds allowed? If not, what do they allow to be shot there?
      I think the answer to your question is yes(?). I don’t know what a full lead wad-cutter is. I showed the guy some old ammo and he said I couldnt use it because of the lead.

      In the photo, the one on the left isn’t allowed, the FMJ on the right is fine.
      Images

      • B6DD7755-B955-4E90-9633-BA49AAB7F543.jpeg

        208.07 kB, 755×600, viewed 298 times
      Lost in the right direction.

    • Bo Peep wrote:

      SarcasmTheElf wrote:

      I'm a little confused when you say lead is banned at the range. Do you mean full lead wad-cutters are banned? Are standard lead core FMJ and JHP rounds allowed? If not, what do they allow to be shot there?
      I think the answer to your question is yes(?). I don’t know what a full lead wad-cutter is. I showed the guy some old ammo and he said I couldnt use it because of the lead.
      In the photo, the one on the left isn’t allowed, the FMJ on the right is fine.
      Ah, gotcha, that's exactly what I was asking. Wad cutters are a variation similar to the one on the left, I hardly ever see all lead bullets so it was the first term that came to mind.
      Dogs are excellent judges of character, this fact goes a long way toward explaining why some people don't like being around them.

    • TJ
      Wadcutters are used for shooting matches because they leave a very clean discernible edge after pearcing the paper as apposed to conventional projectiles...envision if you will the difference between a piece of paper with a hole punched out by a hole punch vs. a pencil being pushed through, the pushed through pencil hole leave little flaps of paper in its wake as it tears through.

    • Wise Old Owl wrote:

      used in a commission of a crime the one on the right will get ya an additional 3-5 in many states. Common names, hollow point, hollow nose and dumb dumb bullets.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Socks: Changed most to many. ().

    • Its a stock photo... nobody is a dumb ass at shooting people with a Hollow Point... and if they did - clearly they do not care about any USA law...

      Perhaps you can help me RS. Have you figured out why when a cop is attacked with a knife wielding thug, (No Gun) why the shoot them at close range when wearing a bullet proof vest?

      just a curious owl, no wrong answer. PM if you want - It's an opinion moment.

      For the rest of us, here I am always trying to be helpful and curious.

      Here is one example to share...Despite the ban on military use, hollow-point bullets are one of the most common types of bullets used by civilians and police, which is due largely to the reduced risk of bystanders being hit by over-penetrating or ricocheted bullets, and the increased speed of incapacitation.
      Be wise enough to walk away from the nonsense around you! :thumbup:

    • [Edit: Sorry that this post is a little garbled, I wrote it on my phone which makes editing difficult]

      WOO, I've taken a handful of knife defense courses over the years that included various practice scenarios and the short version of the answer is because at close range knives are far more deadly than most people understand and knife attacks generally happen extremely quickly. Knives rarely miss, don't jam, don't run out of ammo, and are generally horrific weapons to be on the receiving end of.

      The basic guideline I was taught is that if a knife wielding attacker charges a person at a range of less than 20 feet then they have already won unless the intended target is also armed and highly trained, even in the unlikely event that the victim is able to fight the assailant off it is almost guaranteed that the victim will get seriously injured in the process of defending themselves. Knife attacks are very nasty business, my instructor in the courses had been in two that resulted from attempted muggings and his advice based both on objective data and his own experiences was to avoid knife attacks at all costs.

      At distances closer than 20 feet an assailant can cover the space to their target faster more quickly than the time it takes for a victim to react and much faster than the time it takes an officer to reliably draw and use a holstered sidearm. That is why using a firearm against a knife yielding attacker at distances closer than 20 feet is generally considered justified.
      Dogs are excellent judges of character, this fact goes a long way toward explaining why some people don't like being around them.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Sarcasmtheelf ().

    • Wise Old Owl wrote:

      Its a stock photo... nobody is a dumb ass at shooting people with a Hollow Point... and if they did - clearly they do not care about any USA law...

      Perhaps you can help me RS. Have you figured out why when a cop is attacked with a knife wielding thug, (No Gun) why the shoot them at close range when wearing a bullet proof vest?

      just a curious owl, no wrong answer. PM if you want - It's an opinion moment.

      For the rest of us, here I am always trying to be helpful and curious.

      Here is one example to share...Despite the ban on military use, hollow-point bullets are one of the most common types of bullets used by civilians and police, which is due largely to the reduced risk of bystanders being hit by over-penetrating or ricocheted bullets, and the increased speed of incapacitation.
      well for...
      One, they have an obligation to go home at the end of the day to thier family’s (immediate family’s as well ;)

      Two, never bring a knife to a gun fight.

      Three, deadly force to stop the threat is warranted, they don’t shoot to mame...why should they.

      Rework your question a bit.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Socks ().

    • SarcasmTheElf wrote:

      [Edit: Sorry that this post is a little garbled, I wrote it on my phone which makes editing difficult]

      WOO, I've taken a handful of knife defense courses over the years that included various practice scenarios and the short version of the answer is because at close range knives are far more deadly than most people understand and knife attacks generally happen extremely quickly. Knives rarely miss, don't jam, don't run out of ammo, and are generally horrific weapons to be on the receiving end of.

      The basic guideline I was taught is that if a knife wielding attacker charges a person at a range of less than 20 feet then they have already won unless the intended target is also armed and highly trained, even in the unlikely event that the victim is able to fight the assailant off it is almost guaranteed that the victim will get seriously injured in the process of defending themselves. Knife attacks are very nasty business, my instructor in the courses had been in two that resulted from attempted muggings and his advice based both on objective data and his own experiences was to avoid knife attacks at all costs.

      At distances closer than 20 feet an assailant can cover the space to their target faster more quickly than the time it takes for a victim to react and much faster than the time it takes an officer to reliably draw and use a holstered sidearm. That is why using a firearm against a knife yielding attacker at distances closer than 20 feet is generally considered justified.
      Yeah....no. 21 feet is 7 yards. Take a stab at running 7 yards from a dead stop. How many seconds? Yeah. I can clear leather in less than 2 seconds. You can't cover 7 yards from a dead stop in less than 2 seconds. As long as I am paying attention, you'll be dead at my feet. Now, inside of 21 feet, different scenario. Then, all I have to do is move perpendicular to the attack to keep the distance constant while drawing my gun and then shooting. It is only when you stand like it is High Noon that the edged weapon attacker has any advantage over a gun wielding person.

      "I figure I'm good to 50....maybe 75 YARDS..."


    • ScareBear wrote:

      SarcasmTheElf wrote:

      [Edit: Sorry that this post is a little garbled, I wrote it on my phone which makes editing difficult]

      WOO, I've taken a handful of knife defense courses over the years that included various practice scenarios and the short version of the answer is because at close range knives are far more deadly than most people understand and knife attacks generally happen extremely quickly. Knives rarely miss, don't jam, don't run out of ammo, and are generally horrific weapons to be on the receiving end of.

      The basic guideline I was taught is that if a knife wielding attacker charges a person at a range of less than 20 feet then they have already won unless the intended target is also armed and highly trained, even in the unlikely event that the victim is able to fight the assailant off it is almost guaranteed that the victim will get seriously injured in the process of defending themselves. Knife attacks are very nasty business, my instructor in the courses had been in two that resulted from attempted muggings and his advice based both on objective data and his own experiences was to avoid knife attacks at all costs.

      At distances closer than 20 feet an assailant can cover the space to their target faster more quickly than the time it takes for a victim to react and much faster than the time it takes an officer to reliably draw and use a holstered sidearm. That is why using a firearm against a knife yielding attacker at distances closer than 20 feet is generally considered justified.
      Yeah....no. 21 feet is 7 yards. Take a stab at running 7 yards from a dead stop. How many seconds? Yeah. I can clear leather in less than 2 seconds. You can't cover 7 yards from a dead stop in less than 2 seconds. As long as I am paying attention, you'll be dead at my feet. Now, inside of 21 feet, different scenario. Then, all I have to do is move perpendicular to the attack to keep the distance constant while drawing my gun and then shooting. It is only when you stand like it is High Noon that the edged weapon attacker has any advantage over a gun wielding person.
      You just described almost the same opinion that I did with the exception that in your scenarios everything went just right for the defender. That's certainly possible, but quite often that's not how it goes.

      Going back to the original question. WOO asked:
      "Have you figured out why when a cop is attacked with a knife wielding thug, (No Gun) why the shoot them at close range when wearing a bullet proof vest?"

      Based on your reply is it safe to say that we are in agreement that police are justified in using deadly force against a knife wielding assailant at close range?
      Dogs are excellent judges of character, this fact goes a long way toward explaining why some people don't like being around them.

    • Wise Old Owl wrote:

      Its a stock photo... nobody is a dumb ass at shooting people with a Hollow Point... and if they did - clearly they do not care about any USA law...

      Perhaps you can help me RS. Have you figured out why when a cop is attacked with a knife wielding thug, (No Gun) why the shoot them at close range when wearing a bullet proof vest?

      just a curious owl, no wrong answer. PM if you want - It's an opinion moment.

      For the rest of us, here I am always trying to be helpful and curious.

      Here is one example to share...Despite the ban on military use, hollow-point bullets are one of the most common types of bullets used by civilians and police, which is due largely to the reduced risk of bystanders being hit by over-penetrating or ricocheted bullets, and the increased speed of incapacitation.
      I would have no hesitation shooting somebody at close range with if they tried attacking me with a knife. I feel my life is more important then some a$$hole with a knife trying to do me harm !!

      Sorry for the question marks in the post - it was a copy and paste from another website


      3 lessons learned from a surprise knife attack
      Edged weapons and other potentially lethal implements can easily be concealed in cupped hands that may appear innocuous from the front

      Three important lessons about suspect control were driven home for a Nashville officer � with knife slashes to his face, neck, and back. The attack occurred as P.O. II John Timm and his zone partner Ofcr. Mike Hunnicutt of the Metropolitan Nashville PD were attempting to resolve a domestic conflict.

      An Hispanic male had tried to pick up his young daughter after school but school authorities would not release her to him because the child�s mother (the man's ex-girlfriend) was the custodial parent. He took her anyway. Police were alerted and Timm and Hunnicutt detained the subject on a traffic stop a short time later. The child was in the car, apparently unharmed.

      �We got the parties out of the car,� Timm told PoliceOne. The mother showed up and �the situation escalated due to the suspect not wanting to give up the child. There was a lot of arguing between the parents in Spanish.�

      Timm doesn�t speak Spanish, so the specifics of the exchange were unclear to him. But there was something about the suspect � he�s still not sure just what � that seemed �strange...weird.� He remembers, �My suspicion level was raised�and so was the hair on the back of my neck.�

      Hunnicutt was in his patrol car �working on the report,� Timm says. �I suggested that we physically arrest the suspect for not having a driver�s license, since he presented only Mexico ID. It would separate the parties for the night and somewhat quell the domestic situation.� Hunnicutt agreed.

      By then, the suspect had returned to his car and was sitting behind the steering wheel with the driver�s door open. After he refused commands to exit, Timm grabbed his left forearm, pulled him out, and spun him around against the car. �He was flailing his arms about, trying to get away from my grasp,� Timm says.

      Hunnicutt, trying to help Timm, leg-swept the suspect, and the man went down hard on his back. But Timm, who was gripping him, fell too, landing with his head on the suspect�s chest. �I tried twice to punch him in the face but I didn�t connect,� Timm recalls.

      Then, after perhaps five seconds of struggling on the ground, �I felt a weird sensation on the back of my neck,� Timm says. �Blood started to run down my neck and face and splatter onto the suspect.� Timm reached to the back of his neck and felt a warm, gaping wound. He�d been slashed by a weapon he hadn�t known existed.

      As �everything went into slow motion,� Timm �disengaged from the fight by crawling off the suspect to one side. The suspect began to scramble to his feet, a 4-in. paring knife now glinting in his right hand.

      �Shoot him!� Timm yelled. Hunnicutt drew down and shouted, �Drop the knife!� The suspect didn�t, and the officer fired a round that tore into the attacker�s abdomen.

      The suspect survived and has since been sentenced to 10 years in prison for the attack. As he lay on the ground waiting for EMS to arrive at the scene, he pleaded for the officers to shoot him again, Timm says.

      Besides the neck slash, which sliced down to mere centimeters from his spine, Timm suffered two cuts to his face and a stab wound below the rear panel of his vest which penetrated almost to his kidney. Some 20 stitches were required to close the wounds.

      [IMG:http://policeone.com/policeone/data/Knife-Attack-Lessons-285x24.jpg]

      �I never saw the knife until he used it,� Timm says. �Needless to say, he was very skilled.� Apparently he had the blade cupped and concealed in his right hand when the officer pulled him from the car.

      Timm, 31, had served as an army MP and as a jailor before going on street patrol with Metro two and a half years ago. He offers these lessons learned from his close encounter:

      1.) Don�t permit a suspect to return freely to a vehicle once he has been out. Weapons can be hidden myriad places inside and quickly accessed. The suspect in this case said in court that he kept the knife in the car for chiseling ice off his windshield. Timm believes it was tucked into a pocket in the driver�s door and that the assailant retrieved it during one of several unescorted returns to the car he made during the squabble with his ex-girlfriend.

      2.) Trust your gut. Timm says his �sixth sense� told him there was something hinky about the suspect, but because he couldn�t identify specific danger cues he didn�t follow through by exercising maximum caution when getting him out of the vehicle. He failed, for example, to see and control the suspect�s right hand prior to, during, and after the extraction.

      3.) �Watch the hands� is a mantra of officer safety. But an important element of that rule which is not always understood or remembered is �See the palms.� Edged weapons and other potentially lethal implements can easily be concealed in cupped hands that may appear innocuous from the front, just like the knife that Timm didn�t see until after he was wounded.

      Timm was off work, recovering for two weeks. Fortunately, he says, �I don�t have any lasting effects except an occasional neck cramp.�
      The will of God will never take you where the grace of God will not protect you.

    • Somebody posted something about not using hollow point bullets? WTF is THAT about? A FMJ is FAR more dangerous to innocent bystanders due to pass-through overpenetration and ricochet and FAR less lethal to the bad guy. Again, WTF? I don't carry ANY round that is NOT a hollow point(ALL LEO carry hollow point), except for the Extreme Penetrators in my 9mm and 10mm when in the wilderness and may need to kill something very big and very thick. I wouldn't even DREAM of using anything but the DEEPEST most RAPIDLY EXPANDING hollow point in my house, due to overpenetration. That's why my 12 gauge is loaded with #4 buckshot. Blows up the bad guy, won't go through two sheets of drywall with enough power to kill anything on the other side.

      Honestly, if you are carrying a FMJ round for self defense, be prepared to follow that damn bullet to its terminal point. Which is likely to be an innocent bystander, car or window....and stay the fook away from me. That type of behavior is why people shouldn't carry guns....

      1. What is overpenetration?
      2. I was told (and read) that FMJ’s are good for range shooting. Is that not correct? Are there other suggestions.
      3. If I decide to stay with a revolver, is a speed loader recommended?
      4. I really like my 38. Except, it’s hard to squeeze the trigger (scary bear recommended some work but i don’t think the gun is worth it, it’s a 30 yr old Rossi 38 sp.) When I squeeze, it screws up my aim, because it takes too much force and pushes the muzzle up. So, I cock the hammer before each shot which takes a lot of time.
      5. I dont what the question is for #4. :)
      Lost in the right direction.

    • Bo Peep wrote:

      1. What is overpenetration?
      2. I was told (and read) that FMJ’s are good for range shooting. Is that not correct? Are there other suggestions.
      3. If I decide to stay with a revolver, is a speed loader recommended?
      4. I really like my 38. Except, it’s hard to squeeze the trigger (scary bear recommended some work but i don’t think the gun is worth it, it’s a 30 yr old Rossi 38 sp.) When I squeeze, it screws up my aim, because it takes too much force and pushes the muzzle up. So, I cock the hammer before each shot which takes a lot of time.
      5. I dont what the question is for #4. :)

      a speed loader is for reloading a revolver after you have shot all your bullets and ejected them. You have the speed loader pre loaded with your 5 or 6 rounds and drop it into your cylinder on your gun and twist the knob on the back of it and it drops the bullets into your revolver. I have one and like it. Like all things practice with it. You have to buy one made specifically for your gun.
      Over penetration would mean if you defended yourself and shot someone and the bullets went all the way through them. HPs won't because they open up.
      "Dazed and Confused"
      Recycle, re-use, re-purpose
      Plant a tree
      Take a kid hiking
      Make a difference

    • KillMe Cof123 :S PooFan

      The Dirty Harry Senario

      You’re having your morning coffee when Harry your next door neighbor decides it’s a cruel world and he’s had enough, so he pulls out his 44 magnum hand cannon, and...Wham! The bullet goes through three apartments...the Shyte just hit the fan and none of ya have to pay rent again

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Socks ().

    • Jake Ace wrote:

      KillMe Cof123 :S PooFan

      The Dirty Harry Senario

      You’re having your morning coffee when Harry your next door neighbor decides it’s a cruel world and he’s had enough, so he pulls out his 44 magnum hand cannon, and...Wham! The bullet goes through three apartments...the Shyte just hit the fan and none of ya have to pay rent again
      ...you’ve got to ask yourself one question. Do I feel lucky? Welll do ya, punk?
      Lost in the right direction.

    • Bo Peep wrote:

      1. What is overpenetration? As stated earlier - the bullet will pass through either flesh or a wall without expanding and continue on beyond intended area.
      2. I was told (and read) that FMJ’s are good for range shooting. Is that not correct? Are there other suggestions. FMJ bullets will foul (lead build up) the barrel less then wad cutters and are cheaper then hollow points. Also if you shoot a semi auto they cycle better. I shoot FMJ when I target shoot my semi autos for reasons stated.
      3. If I decide to stay with a revolver, is a speed loader recommended? IMHO unless you are going to participate in combat shooting or timed shooting there is no need for a speed loader.
      4. I really like my 38. Except, it’s hard to squeeze the trigger (scary bear recommended some work but i don’t think the gun is worth it, it’s a 30 yr old Rossi 38 sp.) When you buy ammo make sure you don't purchase +P style ammo. The older weapon may not be able to take the higher combustion When I squeeze, (You should be gently stroking the trigger with just the pad of your finger. If you are wrapping your finger around the trigger that will also throw your aim off) it screws up my aim, because it takes too much force and pushes the muzzle up. So, I cock the hammer before each shot which takes a lot of time. If the Rossi hasn't been maintained over the years I would recommend a good cleaning of the revolver including internal springs, etc. If you don't feel comfortable doing it yourself you should find a couple shops that work on guns that have a good reputation and get an estimate to have them clean it and test/adjust trigger pull. I have seen some older revolvers that have an 8lb trigger pull. You didn't say how far pulling the trigger pushes the muzzle up but the bullet is going off somewhere so IMHO and for your safety and others the money spent getting the revolver working correctly is a good investment.
      5. I dont what the question is for #4. :) I don't know what the answer is to 5 :D

      The will of God will never take you where the grace of God will not protect you.

    • Bo Peep wrote:

      Jake Ace wrote:

      KillMe Cof123 :S PooFan

      The Dirty Harry Senario

      You’re having your morning coffee when Harry your next door neighbor decides it’s a cruel world and he’s had enough, so he pulls out his 44 magnum hand cannon, and...Wham! The bullet goes through three apartments...the Shyte just hit the fan and none of ya have to pay rent again
      ...you’ve got to ask yourself one question. Do I feel lucky? Welll do ya, punk?
      Dirty Harry came to mind after the bad mt bike crash I had the other day..."a man has to know his limitations"...there was a warning sign before the decent say basically the same thing...but who pays attention to warning signs.
      I may grow old but I'll never grow up.