Welcome to the AppalachianTrailCafe.net!
Take a moment and register and then join the conversation

Not Just A Pretty Face

    This site uses cookies. By continuing to browse this site, you are agreeing to our Cookie Policy.

    • Not Just A Pretty Face

      The Outdoors Gender Gap Needs to be Closed

      by Liz Thomas



      Women often wonder whether it is safe for them to hike solo. For me, the answer clearly is yes: I’ve hiked 8,000 miles by myself, pioneered routes in Utah and the Columbia River Gorge, and set an Appalachian Trail speed record. But others argue that in the eyes of a good chunk of women – heck, in the eyes of many people in this country – what I do is an exception.

      Which makes me wonder: Since no one questions female pilots, police officers or professional athletes these days, why should hikers be any different?

      The truth is, as the daughter of two conservative, middle-class parents, I grew up internalizing the idea, rooted in historic and cultural sexism, that walking solo is unsafe for women, whether in nature or in urban settings. For centuries, unaccompanied women frequently were attacked because women, for religious or cultural reasons, aren’t “supposed” to be out. That’s still true in many countries. Even in supposedly safe places that don’t hold such religious or cultural norms, like U.S. cities, women walking alone experience high rates of street harassment. For women, going into the outdoors sometimes is a confidence issue— the fear of being alone, paired with just the plain, old fear that everyone has going outdoors, whether because of four-legged critters or just the two-legged.

      The perception of the outdoors as “not a woman’s place” even has been reinforced by institutions charged with managing public lands. At its inception in 1916, the National Park Service listed park ranger jobs as “men’s only.” Things hadn’t changed much by 1967. With a line straight out of Mad Men, then Secretary of the Interior Stewart Udall responded to a woman’s discrimination complaint by assuring the public that it was “our concern and affection for girls that prevents our saddling them with the full load of ranger duties.” Sporting airline-attendant inspired uniforms, so-called “rangerettes” were barred from law enforcement training and the ability to carry a gun until 1971. High Country News recently has published stories chronicling decades of sexual harassment and gender bias in the Park Service with a survey showing more than half of the female rangers and three-quarters of the female park police reporting on-the-job sexual harassment.

      Despite the cultural taboos, I decided almost 10 years ago to backpack solo from Georgia to Maine on the Appalachian Trail. Those first few nights camping alone I was on such high alert that the U.S. Army Rangers, who use the trail to practice stealth travel skills, failed their mission. As they attempted to sneak past my lone hammock, I shined my headlamp on them. Dejected, the men disappeared into the woods, their training officer chastising them.
      The more I hiked, the more I saw that, mile after mile, night after night, nothing bad happened. The vigilance that kept me up at night stirring with every sound quickly seemed unnecessary. My concerns about hiking solo were similar to those of a teenager learning to drive a car: Those first miles are exciting and scary, and then it becomes normal and routine. In fact, solo hiking and camping reinforced my sense that good things happen when going alone. I gained skills, bolstered my self-reliance, and observed and appreciated nature differently than when I hiked with men.

      My story of discovery on the trail is not unique. Women have proven they can excel and can even surpass men in outdoor abilities, particularly during the past decade. Jennifer Pharr Davis was the National Geographic Adventurer of the Year in 2012. Heather Anderson is the thru-hike record holder for unsupported treks of both the Appalachian and Pacific Crest Trails. Kristin Gates was the first female to solo hike the 1,000-mile-long Brooks Range in Alaska. Female outdoor adventurers have let their love of the mountains be their reward; their stories rarely get the traction (or, like their sports-athlete sisters, the sponsorship and funding) that male adventure athletes receive.
      Still, while elite women are pushing the limits and shattering the glass ceiling, the message that hiking is safe and fun still hasn’t filtered down to your average elementary school girl.

      That’s why I urge all women – especially younger women – to get outdoors during Hike Like a Girl Weekend, May 14-15. Whether you hike solo or with other women, the weekend is not only supposed to be fun, it also is meant as an act of defiance against norms that seem 100 years old yet persist today. It’s standing against every stereotype or micro-aggression ever foisted our way – from the women who are told “be safe” instead of “have fun,” to every company that designs women’s gear by shrinking-and-pinking men’s models, to the ranger who asks the solo female hiker, “Are you doing this all by yourself?” Women’s tax dollars also go to fund public land – yet we still live in a world where that public asset isn’t perceived as safe for all people to enjoy. Trees, rivers and mountains should be spaces that feel welcoming to everyone.
      Knock on wood, but I’ve never had a problem while hiking alone. I also try to be smart about making sure conditions are right, doing research, and keeping a rational head.

      While I’d like to believe my anecdotal evidence – female adventurers like me sharing stories that hiking solo is safe – will inspire other women to get outdoors, either by themselves or with a friend, real change happens when women go out and take that first step in the woods. The real empowering education and confidence comes from showing yourself that you can do something that previously seemed impossible. The experience becomes proof more powerful than any athlete’s testimony that hiking is safe and not a strange thing for a woman to do.
      Hike Like a Girl Weekend doesn’t require you to go out and buy fancy gear. A pair of running shoes, polyester gym clothes and a school backpack will do. Bring water, snacks, a flashlight, sun protection and some extra layers. Bring friends or family, too, if you’d like. For just one day or just one weekend, try something completely off your radar – something that seems outside your limits – whether it’s going beyond your routine run, visiting a new park or trail or hiking solo for the first time. You may be surprised by what you learn. Like me, you may find yourself coming back to hike again.
      Lost in the right direction.
    • This is an awesome rant by a female mountaineer. Love it.


      BRIA FAST SAYS:Mon, Jul 20, 2015 8:51 PM
      Donald,

      I'm not sure if I'm more flabbergasted by your ability to create a comment that so perfectly illustrates why Chris had to write this article in the first place, or impressed that it tied in so many other forms of oppression—victim blaming and colonization just to name a couple.

      If you're talking about the average weight of an elite female sport climber, you're probably spot on at 120 as the average weight of the top ten male elite sport climbers is 124lbs. Given the fact that you said the average weight of a male climber is 185, I can only assume you're actually just talking about your good old fashioned athletic mountaineer. Since the average weight of women in this country is 166 (and 5'4'') I feel we can safely assume that a female athlete, occasionally taller than the national average and certainly more muscular would weigh in closer to what was stated above. If we take me as an example, a 50lb pack would only be 26.4% of my body weight, which means I would be skipping up Rainier more free and easy than even you. My point here is, please stop talking about your idea of what a woman's body is, what its limitations are, and how that shapes your version of reality.

      Additionally, I would be curious to hear your list of men who have "discovered new continents" (divine help us all if anywhere on that lies Christopher Columbus)and, as for space exploration, we have Alice Bowman to thank for driving one of the most amazing missions in our known human history. In a recent article in the Atlantic on the New Horizons mission, the author talks about sexism within the scientific community. She states that when researchers from Yale presented men with the empirical data that demonstrated that sexism is alive and well in their very own profession, “they found that men “flipped out,” as The Washington Post put it, even when presented with proof of gender bias in science, many of them publishing sexist remarks in response."

      Does that sound familiar Donald?

      However, it was only after your comment that marketing in the automotive world justifies inappropriate comments towards women on trail (Don, what a nice Subaru you have, must be your wife’s) that I decided I had to say something. Because what you concluded your antiquated, poorly argued, poorly thought out, bigoted comment with is emotional abuse. And I am sick and tired of the abuse that minorities within the outdoor community face on a daily basis, be it women, men and women of color, or queer identified individuals.

      When you or others like you make inappropriate, sexist, homophobic, or racist comments to individuals on trail, my peevish spirit better ruin your climb. Because your patriarchal supremacist bullshit just ruined mine. This is victim blaming. Victim blaming takes place when the victim of a wrongful act, in this case the victim of sexism or oppression, is held responsible for the harm that befell them.

      “Victim-blaming attitudes marginalize the victim/survivor and make it harder to come forward and report the abuse. If the survivor knows that you or society blames the survivor for the abuse, s/he will not feel safe or comfortable coming forward and talking to you. Victim-blaming attitudes also reinforce what the abuser has been saying all along; that it is the victim’s fault this is happening. It is NOT the victim’s fault or responsibility to fix the situation; it is the abuser’s choice. By engaging in victim-blaming attitudes, society allows the abuser to perpetrate abuse while avoiding accountability for those actions.”

      In addition to victim blaming, I’m going to introduce you to another term called gaslighting, which you demonstrated perfectly in your final paragraphs. From everyday feminism, “Gaslighting is a tactic used to destabilize your understanding of reality, making you constantly doubt your own experiences.” It is often used to reinforce uneven power balances and make victims doubt their own perceptions. I am not hysterical. I am not overly emotional. I am not any other term you use to put down and stereotype women, and when you and others use your power to insert yourself to make me feel small when I have worked just as hard as you to be on that climb, I am not always in control of whether or not that makes me furious.

      But, sometimes I do choose what I feel. And right now, I choose to feel rage and sadness and despair at the gross injustice and pollution and sickness your comments and those like them help to perpetuate. What you concluded with is that the real sexism here, is calling attention to sexism, and that’s terrifying. That, is what I hope most women climbers understand.
      Lost in the right direction.
    • TrafficJam wrote:

      Trillium wrote:

      TrafficJam wrote:

      The Outdoors Gender Gap Needs to be Closed

      by Liz Thomas
      Wasn't familiar with the name Liz Thomas so googled to find out more about her. Her trailname is Snorkel. Here's a link to an article on her: Liz 'Snorkel' Thomas
      She's been a guest on the Trail Show (I think).
      She's the unifficial 5th chair of The Trail Show.
      Dogs are excellent judges of character, this fact goes a long way toward explaining why some people don't like being around them.
    • Trillium wrote:

      TrafficJam wrote:

      Trillium wrote:

      TrafficJam wrote:

      The Outdoors Gender Gap Needs to be Closed

      by Liz Thomas
      Wasn't familiar with the name Liz Thomas so googled to find out more about her. Her trailname is Snorkel. Here's a link to an article on her: Liz 'Snorkel' Thomas
      She's been a guest on the Trail Show (I think).
      What is the Trail Show?
      It's a podcast about hiking...for the most part. They like beer too. Mags used to be part of it. Although a lot of the featured trails are outside of my geographic area and it's unlikely I will ever hike them, I always find it interesting and usually learn something.
      Lost in the right direction.
    • My daughter is a stronger hiker than I am, but over the last few years she's kind of lost interest. Since she's out on her own, not much I can do about it any more.

      I really don't know what to do about the way the ladies just seem to lose interest in the 'traditionally male' things. Aside from not being one of the nether orifices who drive them off.
      I'm not lost. I know where I am. I'm right here.
    • AnotherKevin wrote:

      My daughter is a stronger hiker than I am, but over the last few years she's kind of lost interest. Since she's out on her own, not much I can do about it any more.

      I really don't know what to do about the way the ladies just seem to lose interest in the 'traditionally male' things. Aside from not being one of the nether orifices who drive them off.
      I've noticed a similar dwindling hiking interest among the daughters of several friends. I attribute this to several factors one of which if a boy friend or future husband candidate is a non hiker, than she loses interest. Additionally traditional Utah culture tends to inhibit independence within young women.

      Lest we forget.....



      SSgt Ray Rangel - USAF
      SrA Elizabeth Loncki - USAF
      PFC Adam Harris - USA
      MSgt Eden Pearl - USMC
    • AnotherKevin wrote:

      My daughter is a stronger hiker than I am, but over the last few years she's kind of lost interest. Since she's out on her own, not much I can do about it any more.

      I really don't know what to do about the way the ladies just seem to lose interest in the 'traditionally male' things. Aside from not being one of the nether orifices who drive them off.

      We all develop different interests throughout life and sometimes we take a hiatus from them and return later on. AK, you laid the groundwork and taught your daughter valuable skills. One day, when it's the right time, she will return to hiking. I bet one day, she'll teach her children what you've taught her.

      Thank you for not being an arsehole.

      FWIW, the closed FB women's hiking group reached 5,000 members...I wonder what that tells us?
      Lost in the right direction.
    • Dan76 wrote:

      AnotherKevin wrote:

      My daughter is a stronger hiker than I am, but over the last few years she's kind of lost interest. Since she's out on her own, not much I can do about it any more.

      I really don't know what to do about the way the ladies just seem to lose interest in the 'traditionally male' things. Aside from not being one of the nether orifices who drive them off.
      I've noticed a similar dwindling hiking interest among the daughters of several friends. I attribute this to several factors one of which if a boy friend or future husband candidate is a non hiker, than she loses interest. Additionally traditional Utah culture tends to inhibit independence within young women.
      That phenomena isn't specific to females. My observation is the typical male hiker is either college age or over 50.

      I've always thought Maslows hierarchy of needs made a lot of sense, especially relative to age.
      Lost in the right direction.
    • TrafficJam wrote:

      AnotherKevin wrote:

      My daughter is a stronger hiker than I am, but over the last few years she's kind of lost interest. Since she's out on her own, not much I can do about it any more.

      I really don't know what to do about the way the ladies just seem to lose interest in the 'traditionally male' things. Aside from not being one of the nether orifices who drive them off.
      We all develop different interests throughout life and sometimes we take a hiatus from them and return later on. AK, you laid the groundwork and taught your daughter valuable skills. One day, when it's the right time, she will return to hiking. I bet one day, she'll teach her children what you've taught her.

      Thank you for not being an arsehole.

      FWIW, the closed FB women's hiking group reached 5,000 members...I wonder what that tells us?
      TJ, why did the women's Face Book page close down? That sucks!
    • mental note wrote:

      TrafficJam wrote:

      AnotherKevin wrote:

      My daughter is a stronger hiker than I am, but over the last few years she's kind of lost interest. Since she's out on her own, not much I can do about it any more.

      I really don't know what to do about the way the ladies just seem to lose interest in the 'traditionally male' things. Aside from not being one of the nether orifices who drive them off.
      We all develop different interests throughout life and sometimes we take a hiatus from them and return later on. AK, you laid the groundwork and taught your daughter valuable skills. One day, when it's the right time, she will return to hiking. I bet one day, she'll teach her children what you've taught her.
      Thank you for not being an arsehole.

      FWIW, the closed FB women's hiking group reached 5,000 members...I wonder what that tells us?
      TJ, why did the women's Face Book page close down? That sucks!
      I believe she means that the FB group's privacy status is set to "Closed" it just means that only group members can view or comment on the content.

      Most larger groups on FB are set to "closed" status by their admins in order to discourage spammers.
      Dogs are excellent judges of character, this fact goes a long way toward explaining why some people don't like being around them.
    • SarcasmTheElf wrote:

      mental note wrote:

      TrafficJam wrote:

      AnotherKevin wrote:

      My daughter is a stronger hiker than I am, but over the last few years she's kind of lost interest. Since she's out on her own, not much I can do about it any more.

      I really don't know what to do about the way the ladies just seem to lose interest in the 'traditionally male' things. Aside from not being one of the nether orifices who drive them off.
      We all develop different interests throughout life and sometimes we take a hiatus from them and return later on. AK, you laid the groundwork and taught your daughter valuable skills. One day, when it's the right time, she will return to hiking. I bet one day, she'll teach her children what you've taught her. Thank you for not being an arsehole.

      FWIW, the closed FB women's hiking group reached 5,000 members...I wonder what that tells us?
      TJ, why did the women's Face Book page close down? That sucks!
      I believe she means that the FB group's privacy status is set to "Closed" it just means that only group members can view or comment on the content.
      ah gotcha, yup, prolly better off dismissing us dogs.
      Debating if I really wanna go down this road...ah what the hell, it's Tuesday!
      Having been in the presence of large groups of women's as a fly/dog on the wall, I'm pretty comfortable saying that they spins yarns of color just like the men do, truth! Just sayin'
    • mental note wrote:

      ...and not for nuthin', the cafe slams wb, the women's FB page slams the dogs, I'm sure someone is slamming the women, what comes around goes around, we're all pearly faces ^^
      TOS deserves everything they get. :)

      i belong to a little georgia hiking FB page that has zero drama. zero. a couple days ago a lady posted about going to the GSMNP with her dog and said she wanted to hike on the couple of trails in the park that allow dogs, and was wondering about any other trails outside the park that she could take her dog on. she said she was not going to break any park rules. someone suggested she ask her question in one of the GSMNP hiking FB pages. she did so.

      the next day she reported that she deleted her question on the GSMNP FB page. said her innocent question started a major war between the dog people and the no dog people.
      2,000 miler
    • TrafficJam wrote:

      Dan76 wrote:

      AnotherKevin wrote:

      My daughter is a stronger hiker than I am, but over the last few years she's kind of lost interest. Since she's out on her own, not much I can do about it any more.

      I really don't know what to do about the way the ladies just seem to lose interest in the 'traditionally male' things. Aside from not being one of the nether orifices who drive them off.
      I've noticed a similar dwindling hiking interest among the daughters of several friends. I attribute this to several factors one of which if a boy friend or future husband candidate is a non hiker, than she loses interest. Additionally traditional Utah culture tends to inhibit independence within young women.
      That phenomena isn't specific to females. My observation is the typical male hiker is either college age or over 50.
      I've always thought Maslows hierarchy of needs made a lot of sense, especially relative to age.
      With several exceptions, a factual observation. Utah has spectacular geography resulting in tremendous hiking opportunities. However as evidenced by the robust local RV industry, OHV and the required toy haulers required for transport most buyers are inside the range you've posted.

      Amongst my regular hiking/biking companions, most hikers are over 50 but the MTB crowd is college aged.

      Regarding Maslow, how true.

      Lest we forget.....



      SSgt Ray Rangel - USAF
      SrA Elizabeth Loncki - USAF
      PFC Adam Harris - USA
      MSgt Eden Pearl - USMC
    • mental note wrote:

      ...and not for nuthin', the cafe slams wb, the women's FB page slams the dogs, I'm sure someone is slamming the women, what comes around goes around, we're all pearly faces ^^
      Honestly, I haven't visited or participated very much in the women's group but what little I saw was positive and supportive. The only male bashing I saw was when someone complained that the men on another forum were mean...which they were (I saw the post they were referring to).
      Lost in the right direction.
    • Dan76 wrote:

      TrafficJam wrote:

      Dan76 wrote:

      AnotherKevin wrote:

      My daughter is a stronger hiker than I am, but over the last few years she's kind of lost interest. Since she's out on her own, not much I can do about it any more.

      I really don't know what to do about the way the ladies just seem to lose interest in the 'traditionally male' things. Aside from not being one of the nether orifices who drive them off.
      I've noticed a similar dwindling hiking interest among the daughters of several friends. I attribute this to several factors one of which if a boy friend or future husband candidate is a non hiker, than she loses interest. Additionally traditional Utah culture tends to inhibit independence within young women.
      That phenomena isn't specific to females. My observation is the typical male hiker is either college age or over 50.I've always thought Maslows hierarchy of needs made a lot of sense, especially relative to age.
      With several exceptions, a factual observation. Utah has spectacular geography resulting in tremendous hiking opportunities. However as evidenced by the robust local RV industry, OHV and the required toy haulers required for transport most buyers are inside the range you've posted.
      Amongst my regular hiking/biking companions, most hikers are over 50 but the MTB crowd is college aged.

      Regarding Maslow, how true.
      When i was sent out to my company's Taylorsville office for training I was excited by how incredibly close we were to Mt Olympus and the canyons. I was also incredibly disappointed when I learned that none of the employees who worked in the office, most of whom had lived in the area their while life, had never bothered to summit Olympus.
      Dogs are excellent judges of character, this fact goes a long way toward explaining why some people don't like being around them.
    • TrafficJam wrote:

      Dan76 wrote:

      AnotherKevin wrote:

      My daughter is a stronger hiker than I am, but over the last few years she's kind of lost interest. Since she's out on her own, not much I can do about it any more.

      I really don't know what to do about the way the ladies just seem to lose interest in the 'traditionally male' things. Aside from not being one of the nether orifices who drive them off.
      I've noticed a similar dwindling hiking interest among the daughters of several friends. I attribute this to several factors one of which if a boy friend or future husband candidate is a non hiker, than she loses interest. Additionally traditional Utah culture tends to inhibit independence within young women.
      That phenomena isn't specific to females. My observation is the typical male hiker is either college age or over 50.
      I've always thought Maslows hierarchy of needs made a lot of sense, especially relative to age.
      Not sure if you're familiar with the mrmoneymoustache.com blog, but he recently posted this as a representation of how materialism (specifically unnecessary vehicle purchases) sneaks its way into Maslow's heirarchy:

      [IMG:http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/maslow-smash-1.jpg]
      Dogs are excellent judges of character, this fact goes a long way toward explaining why some people don't like being around them.
    • SarcasmTheElf wrote:

      Dan76 wrote:

      TrafficJam wrote:

      Dan76 wrote:

      AnotherKevin wrote:

      My daughter is a stronger hiker than I am, but over the last few years she's kind of lost interest. Since she's out on her own, not much I can do about it any more.

      I really don't know what to do about the way the ladies just seem to lose interest in the 'traditionally male' things. Aside from not being one of the nether orifices who drive them off.
      I've noticed a similar dwindling hiking interest among the daughters of several friends. I attribute this to several factors one of which if a boy friend or future husband candidate is a non hiker, than she loses interest. Additionally traditional Utah culture tends to inhibit independence within young women.
      That phenomena isn't specific to females. My observation is the typical male hiker is either college age or over 50.I've always thought Maslows hierarchy of needs made a lot of sense, especially relative to age.
      With several exceptions, a factual observation. Utah has spectacular geography resulting in tremendous hiking opportunities. However as evidenced by the robust local RV industry, OHV and the required toy haulers required for transport most buyers are inside the range you've posted.Amongst my regular hiking/biking companions, most hikers are over 50 but the MTB crowd is college aged.

      Regarding Maslow, how true.
      When i was sent out to my company's Taylorsville office for training I was excited by how incredibly close we were to Mt Olympus and the canyons. I was also incredibly disappointed when I learned that none of the employees who worked in the office, most of whom had lived in the area their while life, had never bothered to summit Olympus.
      I'm not too surprised. I've lived near museums I didn't go to. But the subject didn't interest me
      --
      "What do you mean its sunrise already ?!", me.
    • SarcasmTheElf wrote:

      Dan76 wrote:

      TrafficJam wrote:

      Dan76 wrote:

      AnotherKevin wrote:

      My daughter is a stronger hiker than I am, but over the last few years she's kind of lost interest. Since she's out on her own, not much I can do about it any more.

      I really don't know what to do about the way the ladies just seem to lose interest in the 'traditionally male' things. Aside from not being one of the nether orifices who drive them off.
      I've noticed a similar dwindling hiking interest among the daughters of several friends. I attribute this to several factors one of which if a boy friend or future husband candidate is a non hiker, than she loses interest. Additionally traditional Utah culture tends to inhibit independence within young women.
      That phenomena isn't specific to females. My observation is the typical male hiker is either college age or over 50.I've always thought Maslows hierarchy of needs made a lot of sense, especially relative to age.
      With several exceptions, a factual observation. Utah has spectacular geography resulting in tremendous hiking opportunities. However as evidenced by the robust local RV industry, OHV and the required toy haulers required for transport most buyers are inside the range you've posted.Amongst my regular hiking/biking companions, most hikers are over 50 but the MTB crowd is college aged.

      Regarding Maslow, how true.
      When i was sent out to my company's Taylorsville office for training I was excited by how incredibly close we were to Mt Olympus and the canyons. I was also incredibly disappointed when I learned that none of the employees who worked in the office, most of whom had lived in the area their while life, had never bothered to summit Olympus.
      I surmise you summited Mt O?

      Many folks in the area of have not hiked to the summit but have hiked some of the trail as many turn back. Our trail building team frequently encounters ill-prepared walkers on this trail.

      Lest we forget.....



      SSgt Ray Rangel - USAF
      SrA Elizabeth Loncki - USAF
      PFC Adam Harris - USA
      MSgt Eden Pearl - USMC
    • Dan76 wrote:

      SarcasmTheElf wrote:

      Dan76 wrote:

      TrafficJam wrote:

      Dan76 wrote:

      AnotherKevin wrote:

      My daughter is a stronger hiker than I am, but over the last few years she's kind of lost interest. Since she's out on her own, not much I can do about it any more.

      I really don't know what to do about the way the ladies just seem to lose interest in the 'traditionally male' things. Aside from not being one of the nether orifices who drive them off.
      I've noticed a similar dwindling hiking interest among the daughters of several friends. I attribute this to several factors one of which if a boy friend or future husband candidate is a non hiker, than she loses interest. Additionally traditional Utah culture tends to inhibit independence within young women.
      That phenomena isn't specific to females. My observation is the typical male hiker is either college age or over 50.I've always thought Maslows hierarchy of needs made a lot of sense, especially relative to age.
      With several exceptions, a factual observation. Utah has spectacular geography resulting in tremendous hiking opportunities. However as evidenced by the robust local RV industry, OHV and the required toy haulers required for transport most buyers are inside the range you've posted.Amongst my regular hiking/biking companions, most hikers are over 50 but the MTB crowd is college aged.
      Regarding Maslow, how true.
      When i was sent out to my company's Taylorsville office for training I was excited by how incredibly close we were to Mt Olympus and the canyons. I was also incredibly disappointed when I learned that none of the employees who worked in the office, most of whom had lived in the area their while life, had never bothered to summit Olympus.
      I surmise you summited Mt O?
      Many folks in the area of have not hiked to the summit but have hiked some of the trail as many turn back. Our trail building team frequently encounters ill-prepared walkers on this trail.
      Sure did. The funny part to me was that almost all my coworkers told me it was too dangerouse to summit in January. Then the grizzled guy at REI rentals coubter told me off wanting to rent crampons "You don't need no crampons for Mt Olympus! You've got a set of microspike right, you'll be fine!"
      Dogs are excellent judges of character, this fact goes a long way toward explaining why some people don't like being around them.
    • TrafficJam wrote:

      AnotherKevin wrote:

      My daughter is a stronger hiker than I am, but over the last few years she's kind of lost interest. Since she's out on her own, not much I can do about it any more.

      I really don't know what to do about the way the ladies just seem to lose interest in the 'traditionally male' things. Aside from not being one of the nether orifices who drive them off.
      We all develop different interests throughout life and sometimes we take a hiatus from them and return later on. AK, you laid the groundwork and taught your daughter valuable skills. One day, when it's the right time, she will return to hiking. I bet one day, she'll teach her children what you've taught her.

      Thank you for not being an arsehole.

      FWIW, the closed FB women's hiking group reached 5,000 members...I wonder what that tells us?
      "Raise up a child in the way way he (or she) should go and when they are old they will not depart from it". I've thought about that quote a lot, there's a wide span between the raising up and the old, a lot can happen in between.
      I may grow old but I'll never grow up.
    • SarcasmTheElf wrote:

      Dan76 wrote:

      TrafficJam wrote:

      Dan76 wrote:

      AnotherKevin wrote:

      My daughter is a stronger hiker than I am, but over the last few years she's kind of lost interest. Since she's out on her own, not much I can do about it any more.

      I really don't know what to do about the way the ladies just seem to lose interest in the 'traditionally male' things. Aside from not being one of the nether orifices who drive them off.
      I've noticed a similar dwindling hiking interest among the daughters of several friends. I attribute this to several factors one of which if a boy friend or future husband candidate is a non hiker, than she loses interest. Additionally traditional Utah culture tends to inhibit independence within young women.
      That phenomena isn't specific to females. My observation is the typical male hiker is either college age or over 50.I've always thought Maslows hierarchy of needs made a lot of sense, especially relative to age.
      With several exceptions, a factual observation. Utah has spectacular geography resulting in tremendous hiking opportunities. However as evidenced by the robust local RV industry, OHV and the required toy haulers required for transport most buyers are inside the range you've posted.Amongst my regular hiking/biking companions, most hikers are over 50 but the MTB crowd is college aged.

      Regarding Maslow, how true.
      When i was sent out to my company's Taylorsville office for training I was excited by how incredibly close we were to Mt Olympus and the canyons. I was also incredibly disappointed when I learned that none of the employees who worked in the office, most of whom had lived in the area their while life, had never bothered to summit Olympus.
      For five years the view from my back yard in VA was Mt Rogers and White Top....never went to Grayson Highlands until I moved to AL and hiked the AT.
      I may grow old but I'll never grow up.