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Staying warm

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    • TrafficJam wrote:

      CoachLou wrote:

      You must get the warmest sleeping bag you can afford. A good nite sleep is as important as hydration on a long hike.

      I wear a set of Poly pro Long johns and a wool hat, on the coldest nites.

      Your evening meal plays a huge role in how warm you sleep.


      I have never had a good night's sleep on the trail.


      This is unfortunate............................I've had some crappy ones, but normally I sleep well
      Cheesecake> Ramen :thumbsup:

    • Last night I slept at Hemlock Springs campsite, just east of the Hudson River. My CCF pad was too thin and I was losing body heat to the ground. I grabbed my REI pack and put it under the CCF. The padding on the pack kept me warm enough. It works well if you sleep on your back, but I prefer to sleep on my side. I had to angle my leg just right to avoid cutting off circulation.

      I am careful to vent my breath outside my Big Agnes Lost Ranger 15F bag. I wore a bandana, balaclava, and two hoods over my head, four pairs of socks, convertible pants, nylon wind pants, and snow pants, long sleeve synthetic shirt, two fleece jackets, one down jacket, and a Frogg Toggs jacket. I wore Hot Fingers glove mittens. I have insulated slippers, but did not use them on this trip. I ate shortly before climbing into the bag.

      This is the first trip I did without thermal underwear. I will probably avoid thermal underwear in the future. It is too snug fitting and therefore not convenient for wearing over my shirt and convertible pants, and I do not want to take my shirt and pants off twice a day, especially at some of the coldest hours.
      I am human and I need to be loved - just like everybody else does

    • Obviously I don't have the cold issues that you guys have but I have found that usually putting clothing beyond tee shirt and underwear counter productive in a sleeping bag. The bags rely on your body heat. A balaclava is good and socks and gloves too but I would think tyvek around the bag would be more helpful than too much clothing in it.
      Resident Australian, proving being a grumpy old man is not just an American trait.

    • Re: Staying warm

      OzJacko wrote:

      Obviously I don't have the cold issues that you guys have but I have found that usually putting clothing beyond tee shirt and underwear counter productive in a sleeping bag. The bags rely on your body heat. A balaclava is good and socks and gloves too but I would think tyvek around the bag would be more helpful than too much clothing in it.
      I agree less is more. Too much clothing interferes with what the bag is designed to do-reflect body heat.
      its all good

    • WanderingStovie wrote:


      This is the first trip I did without thermal underwear. I will probably avoid thermal underwear in the future. It is too snug fitting and therefore not convenient for wearing over my shirt and convertible pants, and I do not want to take my shirt and pants off twice a day, especially at some of the coldest hours.


      There is a reason they call it underwear. :rolleyes:

    • Sleep your own sleep.

      If I wear lots of insulation, my clothes trap some of the heat, and the bag traps the rest. Plus the clothing helps against my back or side, whichever contacts the CCF pad, but the effectiveness of the extra clothing is reduced by my body weight compressing it. For that reason, I expect the fleece to be more effective than the down jacket underneath me, but I nevertheless wear the down jacket so that it helps where it is not compressed. My down jacket is only 40% down and 60% feathers, and only cost me $2 at a garage sale. I do not know if the feathers help with the loft, but I suspect it does not compress as well as 100% down would in a stuff sack. Those of you who paid hundreds of dollars for your down jacket probably do not want to toss and turn while wearing one. I see no reason not to wear my clothing. If my clothing occupied too much space and compressed the down in my bag or jacket, there would be a problem, but this does not seem to happen for me. If it kept me too warm and I perspired excessively as a result, there would also be a problem.

      The snow pants and the down jacket are layers I do not use while hiking, so I would be better off budgeting the ounces carried to a warmer bag. I use both around camp, so that is not entirely true, but if I really wanted to be a gram weenie, I could tough it out and/or minimize time in camp outside my bag.

      I use the two fleece jackets and the somewhat breathable Frogg Toggs jacket while hiking. Except for the one of the fleece jackets, they are big enough to be worn over the chest and sternum straps, and zippered most of the way shut as needed. That leaves an opening just below the neck, where armpit perspiration has a place to escape. It is a delicate balancing act between overheating and hypothermia. If it is above freezing and not windy, the fleece jackets are open, and maybe my arms are out of the sleeves, and I loosen the part of the balaclava that wraps around my neck. If it is cold and windy, the Frogg Toggs jacket blocks the wind, but I have to keep it open while climbing to avoid moisture build up. The Hot Fingers glove mittens also have a moisture problem during exertion, and sometimes while sleeping. I take them off while climbing. I make these various adjustments without removing my pack. Taking arms out of sleeves and putting them back in is easier with extra large jackets, but still requires good flexibility.

      What I find is that any movement compresses the down and forces air into and out of the bag, destroying the layer of trapped air in the down. Then it takes some time to rebuild that thermal gradient between the inside and outside of the bag. I toss and turn to restore blood circulation, but try to minimize how often I do.

      I have some metalized plastic sheeting ("space blanket?") designed to reflect body heat. I could try attaching some to the top side of the CCF, so that it is at least somewhat protected from my tossing and turning by being inside the Big Agnes pad sleeve. It is not breathable, so I would only use it against the CCF, which is also not breathable.

      Anyone care to comment on vapor barriers? I think they would do more harm than good at the temperatures I experienced. I think I perspire too much, even in the cold. I could give my unbreathable REI bivy sack another try in 20*F temperatures to see what happens. It is useless to me during the summer.
      I am human and I need to be loved - just like everybody else does

    • TrafficJam wrote:

      CoachLou wrote:

      You must get the warmest sleeping bag you can afford. A good nite sleep is as important as hydration on a long hike.

      I wear a set of Poly pro Long johns and a wool hat, on the coldest nites.

      Your evening meal plays a huge role in how warm you sleep.


      I have never had a good night's sleep on the trail.


      I find I don't sleep well until my third night out. The first night I am very restless, the second night it's better, and by third I'm sleeping good. It's just an adjustment process I go thru. The first night I just can't seem to turn my brain off.
      "Dazed and Confused"
      Recycle, re-use, re-purpose
      Plant a tree
      Take a kid hiking
      Make a difference

    • TrafficJam wrote:

      Didn't years ago, the Army taught soldiers that it was warmer to not wear clothing when they were in their bags in winter?

      I have never served in any military branch, but the Army teaches cold weather survival with the acronym "COLD", which I am familiar with. If you are out hiking or camping in cold weather, you really need to know what you are doing and why. I tried to elaborate on my reasons in my previous post. I hope others here will too.

      Here's a link related to "COLD": wilderness-survival.net/cold-3.php
      I am human and I need to be loved - just like everybody else does

    • WanderingStovie wrote:

      TrafficJam wrote:

      Didn't years ago, the Army taught soldiers that it was warmer to not wear clothing when they were in their bags in winter?

      I have never served in any military branch, but the Army teaches cold weather survival with the acronym "COLD", which I am familiar with. If you are out hiking or camping in cold weather, you really need to know what you are doing and why. I tried to elaborate on my reasons in my previous post. I hope others here will too.

      Here's a link related to "COLD": wilderness-survival.net/cold-3.php


      ...
      Lost in the right direction.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Traffic Jam ().

    • I don't really have much experience at all with winter camping, so I'm following this thread with some interest. I have survived two sub-zero nights in the White Mountains. One was at the old Beaver Brook shelter, when it was down close to the road. That night I used two down bags, one inside the other, and slept snug as a bug. Another was at Hermit Lakes shelter, with my ancient 2.5 lb. down bag. That was not quite as restful, but OK. I generally sleep in a base layer from the "always dry and for camp only" bag. In summer it's a silk base layer, in winter it's polypro or fleece. Socks and some kind of hat, of course.

    • WanderingStovie wrote:

      Sleep your own sleep.

      If I wear lots of insulation, my clothes trap some of the heat, and the bag traps the rest. Plus the clothing helps against my back or side, whichever contacts the CCF pad, but the effectiveness of the extra clothing is reduced by my body weight compressing it. For that reason, I expect the fleece to be more effective than the down jacket underneath me, but I nevertheless wear the down jacket so that it helps where it is not compressed. My down jacket is only 40% down and 60% feathers, and only cost me $2 at a garage sale. I do not know if the feathers help with the loft, but I suspect it does not compress as well as 100% down would in a stuff sack. Those of you who paid hundreds of dollars for your down jacket probably do not want to toss and turn while wearing one. I see no reason not to wear my clothing. If my clothing occupied too much space and compressed the down in my bag or jacket, there would be a problem, but this does not seem to happen for me. If it kept me too warm and I perspired excessively as a result, there would also be a problem.

      The snow pants and the down jacket are layers I do not use while hiking, so I would be better off budgeting the ounces carried to a warmer bag. I use both around camp, so that is not entirely true, but if I really wanted to be a gram weenie, I could tough it out and/or minimize time in camp outside my bag.

      I use the two fleece jackets and the somewhat breathable Frogg Toggs jacket while hiking. Except for the one of the fleece jackets, they are big enough to be worn over the chest and sternum straps, and zippered most of the way shut as needed. That leaves an opening just below the neck, where armpit perspiration has a place to escape. It is a delicate balancing act between overheating and hypothermia. If it is above freezing and not windy, the fleece jackets are open, and maybe my arms are out of the sleeves, and I loosen the part of the balaclava that wraps around my neck. If it is cold and windy, the Frogg Toggs jacket blocks the wind, but I have to keep it open while climbing to avoid moisture build up. The Hot Fingers glove mittens also have a moisture problem during exertion, and sometimes while sleeping. I take them off while climbing. I make these various adjustments without removing my pack. Taking arms out of sleeves and putting them back in is easier with extra large jackets, but still requires good flexibility.

      What I find is that any movement compresses the down and forces air into and out of the bag, destroying the layer of trapped air in the down. Then it takes some time to rebuild that thermal gradient between the inside and outside of the bag. I toss and turn to restore blood circulation, but try to minimize how often I do.

      I have some metalized plastic sheeting ("space blanket?") designed to reflect body heat. I could try attaching some to the top side of the CCF, so that it is at least somewhat protected from my tossing and turning by being inside the Big Agnes pad sleeve. It is not breathable, so I would only use it against the CCF, which is also not breathable.

      Anyone care to comment on vapor barriers? I think they would do more harm than good at the temperatures I experienced. I think I perspire too much, even in the cold. I could give my unbreathable REI bivy sack another try in 20*F temperatures to see what happens. It is useless to me during the summer.


      Compressive clothing traps warmth next to the skin and keeps moisture away from the body. Compression also aids in circulation which is why people with certain medical conditions wear compression socks to prevent blood clots. Maybe you should rethink not wearing base layers? Another thought is that you are wearing the same clothing to sleep that you hike in. A few minutes of discomfort to change into dry clothes might also reduce the need for multiple layers.
      Lost in the right direction.

    • Toli wrote:

      TrafficJam wrote:

      CoachLou wrote:

      You must get the warmest sleeping bag you can afford. A good nite sleep is as important as hydration on a long hike.

      I wear a set of Poly pro Long johns and a wool hat, on the coldest nites.

      Your evening meal plays a huge role in how warm you sleep.


      I have never had a good night's sleep on the trail.


      That sucks ;( ...


      Yep...but once I'm packed and hiking, I feel rested and ready to go.
      Lost in the right direction.

    • TrafficJam wrote:

      Another thought is that you are wearing the same clothing to sleep that you hike in. A few minutes of discomfort to change into dry clothes might also reduce the need for multiple layers.


      I'll ditto this part wholeheartedly. Maybe I'm just a city boy, used to daily shower and clean clothes in the morning. I know most of that goes out the window when I'm hiking, but I just can't imagine sleeping in the same clothes I hiked in all day -- regardless of the season.

    • rafe wrote:

      TrafficJam wrote:

      Another thought is that you are wearing the same clothing to sleep that you hike in. A few minutes of discomfort to change into dry clothes might also reduce the need for multiple layers.


      I'll ditto this part wholeheartedly. Maybe I'm just a city boy, used to daily shower and clean clothes in the morning. I know most of that goes out the window when I'm hiking, but I just can't imagine sleeping in the same clothes I hiked in all day -- regardless of the season.

      Agree. Can get in the bag with sweaty dirty clothes. I strip down and put the sleep clothes on every night after wiping down the "critical" areas
      RIAP

    • CoachLou wrote:

      You must get the warmest sleeping bag you can afford. A good nite sleep is as important as hydration on a long hike.

      I wear a set of Poly pro Long johns and a wool hat, on the coldest nites.

      Your evening meal plays a huge role in how warm you sleep.



      all joking aside Coach when the food hits the stomach and you are doing no cook the feet and arms get cold for a few hours. All that blood gorges the stomach so its no wonder a hot meal at night in winter is important.
      Be wise enough to walk away from the nonsense around you! :thumbup:

    • TrafficJam wrote:


      Compressive clothing traps warmth next to the skin and keeps moisture away from the body. Compression also aids in circulation which is why people with certain medical conditions wear compression socks to prevent blood clots. Maybe you should rethink not wearing base layers? Another thought is that you are wearing the same clothing to sleep that you hike in. A few minutes of discomfort to change into dry clothes might also reduce the need for multiple layers.

      I have thick New Balance socks that feel very nice on my feet, but I do not wear them while hiking. Thankfully compression socks are not medically necessary for me. I wear thinner socks that I can double up for equivalent padding, and separate for faster drying. If for some reason my feet were to swell, I could switch to wearing just one pair. I guess some people sleep with elevated feet to reduce swelling, but I sleep with my head higher than my feet. My shoes have medial posting, but that is useless to me since I do not over-pronate. I just wear what feels comfortable.

      I find it convenient to avoid base layers. I do not expect most hikers will agree with me. I have gotten good at adjusting my layers as I hike to minimize water lost as perspiration. I arrive at camp with clothes that are at most just slightly damp, and by the time I crawl in my bag, my clothes have dried out. If I wore base layers while hiking, I would overheat and arrive quite sweaty.

      Good thing I am hiking in the off season. There are fewer people to offend in the shelters.
      I am human and I need to be loved - just like everybody else does

    • WanderingStovie wrote:

      TrafficJam wrote:


      Compressive clothing traps warmth next to the skin and keeps moisture away from the body. Compression also aids in circulation which is why people with certain medical conditions wear compression socks to prevent blood clots. Maybe you should rethink not wearing base layers? Another thought is that you are wearing the same clothing to sleep that you hike in. A few minutes of discomfort to change into dry clothes might also reduce the need for multiple layers.

      I have thick New Balance socks that feel very nice on my feet, but I do not wear them while hiking. Thankfully compression socks are not medically necessary for me. I wear thinner socks that I can double up for equivalent padding, and separate for faster drying. If for some reason my feet were to swell, I could switch to wearing just one pair. I guess some people sleep with elevated feet to reduce swelling, but I sleep with my head higher than my feet. My shoes have medial posting, but that is useless to me since I do not over-pronate. I just wear what feels comfortable.

      I find it convenient to avoid base layers. I do not expect most hikers will agree with me. I have gotten good at adjusting my layers as I hike to minimize water lost as perspiration. I arrive at camp with clothes that are at most just slightly damp, and by the time I crawl in my bag, my clothes have dried out. If I wore base layers while hiking, I would overheat and arrive quite sweaty.

      Good thing I am hiking in the off season. There are fewer people to offend in the shelters.



      you're doing it wrong.
      its all good

    • Speaking of gear that should not be allowed to freeze:

      At what temperature does Aqua Mira freeze?

      I had water turning to ice in my plastic bottles at noon on my November section hike. I insulate my bottles by pulling spare socks over them. How do others keep their water liquid? Would it help to carry water in a flexible container stored in the hydration pouch between my back and whatever else is in my pack? Do people blow into the bite valve to keep water from freezing in the hose? Enquiring minds want to know.
      I am human and I need to be loved - just like everybody else does

    • The temperature may affect your choice of batteries. The Energizer alkaline AAA battery is rated down to 0*F. The Energizer Ultimate Lithium AAA battery is rated down to -40*F, and weighs 1/3 less than the alkaline AAA battery. If I understand the product data sheets correctly, there should be little difference in battery life between alkaline and ultimate lithium AAA batteries when used in headlamps drawing 10 to 25 mA (lasting about 120 hours at 10 mA, and about 50 hours at 25 mA).

      Sources:
      data.energizer.com/PDFs/E92.pdf
      data.energizer.com/PDFs/l92.pdf
      energizer.com/batteries/perfor…te-lithium/Pages/aaa.aspx
      I am human and I need to be loved - just like everybody else does

    • jimmyjam wrote:

      TrafficJam wrote:

      CoachLou wrote:

      You must get the warmest sleeping bag you can afford. A good nite sleep is as important as hydration on a long hike.

      I wear a set of Poly pro Long johns and a wool hat, on the coldest nites.

      Your evening meal plays a huge role in how warm you sleep.


      I have never had a good night's sleep on the trail.


      I find I don't sleep well until my third night out. The first night I am very restless, the second night it's better, and by third I'm sleeping good. It's just an adjustment process I go thru. The first night I just can't seem to turn my brain off.


      I am with JJ on this one. Regardless of the weather, the more days I am out it seems the better I sleep.
      The road to glory cannot be followed with much baggage.
      Richard Ewell, CSA General

    • rafe wrote:

      Good question about the hydration system -- wondering if anyone has a way of using these in winter. I still have one of those OR insulated jackets made for Nalgene bottles but that seems so low-tech.


      for dayhikes i have an insulated camelback with an insulated tube, which so far has worked down to about 10 degrees.
      regardless of season, for longer hikes i carry a 2L bladder and a smartwater bottle. i can put the bladder under a fleece as a pillow. if the water strats to freeze, a good coupla whacks against a tree breaks up the ice so that i can pour some to boil. dont like using hydration bladders on long hikes, cuz i dont know how much water i have. on a day hike in the cold, i rarely drink the bladder dry so i dont worry as much.
      its all good

    • I have homemade Reflectix jackets for Nalgene bottles, and usually carry two. In winter, I leave my cookpot full of water in the tent vestibule. Sometimes it's mild enough that it doesn't freeze there, and in any case, it's already in the pot ready to thaw. Nalgenes will stand up to being plunked in a pot of hot water to thaw them out.

      I use a water bladder in milder conditions, and do blow the hose out so it won't freeze. Against my back in the pack, the main body of the water bladder seems to stay liquid most of the time. Like hikerboy, I use it as a pillow at night- with the hose removed. I don't bring it in deep cold, it's Nalgene bottles all the way then.

      In deep cold, Nalgene bottles go in the pack or pockets upside down. Ice floats. With the bottle upside down, it doesn't freeze across the mouth of the bottle.

      I do strip to the skin and put on a dry base layer when bedding down. A few moments of being cold is worth it to stay warm all night. If I wear polypro base layer, socks, tuque or balaclava and glove liners, I find that my 0 degree Marmot bag is true to temperature.

      OzJacko's suggestion of Tyvek around the bag sounds as if it's just asking for condensation and frost. Brrrr. I'm careful to vent my tent even in cold weather.
      I'm not lost. I know where I am. I'm right here.

    • If under 30*, a bivy helps a lot. Anything over that and too much condensation builds up in mine.

      If I'm out for a hike and I know the temps will get to 20* or lower, I take a scarf. I can use it on and off during the day. At night I can wrap it around my face. And then I stick my head in the bag and close it up. If I get too hot I stick my head out and go back to sleep. Then if I start getting cold in my bag, the head goes back in to help warm the bag up. I've done this lots of times down to around zero. I've never had a problem doing this for 2-3 nights. But any hike longer than that I would lessen my time with my head in the bag. I would also hang my bag during lunch break to let moisture escape.

      Breadbags on feet helps too.

    • Dmax wrote:

      If under 30*, a bivy helps a lot. Anything over that and too much condensation builds up in mine.

      If I'm out for a hike and I know the temps will get to 20* or lower, I take a scarf. I can use it on and off during the day. At night I can wrap it around my face. And then I stick my head in the bag and close it up. If I get too hot I stick my head out and go back to sleep. Then if I start getting cold in my bag, the head goes back in to help warm the bag up. I've done this lots of times down to around zero. I've never had a problem doing this for 2-3 nights. But any hike longer than that I would lessen my time with my head in the bag. I would also hang my bag during lunch break to let moisture escape.

      Breadbags on feet helps too.


      How does the bivy work? I think of a bivy as a shelter...do you put your bag in the bivy or use it as a liner?
      Lost in the right direction.

    • A bivy is sort of a mini shelter. They are usually just a little bigger than your bag. You put your bag in it and zip it up. The ones I've seen have a net area that goes over your face with a hood over that for rain protection. Too claustrophobic for me.
      "Dazed and Confused"
      Recycle, re-use, re-purpose
      Plant a tree
      Take a kid hiking
      Make a difference