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change.org petition against new AMC hut in Crawford Notch

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    • change.org petition against new AMC hut in Crawford Notch

      While I support many of the AMC's efforts over the years, a new hut in Crawford Notch isn't one of them. There are other huts in close proximity and the Highland Center just up the road. This isn't a rehab project, it's full on new construction. It won't be a simple bunk room either; closer to a hotel style format.

      Please take time to consider the impact a new hut will have, and the number of forest users who will actually use the hut (the AMC has data that show that the number of forest users who overnight in it's huts is VERY small).

      MANY voices will need to be heard to derail this effort. You're signature and effort in spreading the word will help immensely.

      change.org/p/forest-users-who-…ition&utm_medium=copylink

    • Being in New England recently to hike, I got to hear both sides of the story.
      Evidently the new hut is proposed to be along the Ethan Allen Trail for an easy and short (by Café standards anyway) hike to give families with children a place to hike with the hut as a destination. It's a step to get kids to enjoy hiking and the outdoors.

      There's a lot of directions you can go with that idea, but that's how it was explained to me.

    • I am someone who doesn't subscribe to the belief that all development is bad.
      I have no opinion one way or another on this proposal and not being a resident my opinion shouldn't matter anyway.
      However I do think sometimes the greater long term good can come from some "commercialization" of the wilderness if it succeeds in getting more people, particularly the young, to appreciate the wilderness.
      I am sure the AMC (who I do not agree with on many issues) will do their best to instill LNT principles into their clients (whilst charging them exorbitant rates for their services). I would not oppose a proposal such as this without full understanding of what is proposed.
      I do not believe Crawford Notch to be true wilderness as it is and would need to be convinced that the proposed development would be truly detrimental to the area.
      Resident Australian, proving being a grumpy old man is not just an American trait.

    • OzJacko wrote:

      I am someone who doesn't subscribe to the belief that all development is bad.
      I have no opinion one way or another on this proposal and not being a resident my opinion shouldn't matter anyway.
      However I do think sometimes the greater long term good can come from some "commercialization" of the wilderness if it succeeds in getting more people, particularly the young, to appreciate the wilderness.
      I am sure the AMC (who I do not agree with on many issues) will do their best to instill LNT principles into their clients (whilst charging them exorbitant rates for their services). I would not oppose a proposal such as this without full understanding of what is proposed.
      I do not believe Crawford Notch to be true wilderness as it is and would need to be convinced that the proposed development would be truly detrimental to the area.
      Not sure many young people can afford to stay at the AMC huts. Most families can't.
      Sometimes you will never know the value of a moment until it becomes a memory.
      Dr. Seuss Cof123

    • Rasty wrote:

      OzJacko wrote:

      I am someone who doesn't subscribe to the belief that all development is bad.
      I have no opinion one way or another on this proposal and not being a resident my opinion shouldn't matter anyway.
      However I do think sometimes the greater long term good can come from some "commercialization" of the wilderness if it succeeds in getting more people, particularly the young, to appreciate the wilderness.
      I am sure the AMC (who I do not agree with on many issues) will do their best to instill LNT principles into their clients (whilst charging them exorbitant rates for their services). I would not oppose a proposal such as this without full understanding of what is proposed.
      I do not believe Crawford Notch to be true wilderness as it is and would need to be convinced that the proposed development would be truly detrimental to the area.
      Not sure many young people can afford to stay at the AMC huts. Most families can't.
      very few vacancies in the huts from july through september.plenty will pay.
      its all good

    • Yes, plenty will pay. But many more can't pay. AMC huts cater to a very, very small percentage of forest users.

      The AMC's sale's pitch for the Highland Center was identical to that of Sparkling Cascade: increased access and learning. With close proximity of two other huts, and frequent vacancies at the Highland Center, and scores of hotels, motels, and B&B's throughout the White Mountain region, a new hut simply isn't needed. Furthermore, what's next? Where does development stop? The Highland Center and this new hut set a precedent for further construction. I live here. I want my forests to be left wooded and raw. As far as access is concerned, there are a plethora of short, simple trails throughout Crawford Notch, and throughout the WMNF.

      And if this project were to move foreword, shouldn't the lease be opened to bid? Why the AMC and not the RMC? Or a private B&B? Or Attitash Resorts? Or Motel 6?

      My opinion would perhaps be different if the cost of an AMC hut overnight were less, perhaps a $10 or $20 donation. The AMC has wandered far off it's course of forest stewardship.

      AMC huts do very little to support local economy. In fact, the detract from it. Every user night at a hut is one less night at a local hotel and one less meal at a local restaurant.

    • I totally agree about the AMC and it's charges but that is no reason to oppose the hut. If they build a hut and it's too expensive for you, what have you lost? Nothing.
      And maybe some people with money will see the mountains as worth saving.
      Resident Australian, proving being a grumpy old man is not just an American trait.

    • OzJacko wrote:

      I totally agree about the AMC and it's charges but that is no reason to oppose the hut. If they build a hut and it's too expensive for you, what have you lost? Nothing.
      And maybe some people with money will see the mountains as worth saving.
      The flip side is if the AMC can hog all the camping space with very pricy amenities then the working class and poor will effectively be shut out. One could easily see a day where the only legal camping on the AT in the whites could be at AMC facilities.
      Sometimes you will never know the value of a moment until it becomes a memory.
      Dr. Seuss Cof123

    • So the objection is not what they're doing but what they may do.
      I still think y'all overthinking it.
      More people get out of the city and see the mountains. I don't see a problem.
      People who drive to a hut and pay too much are not going to swarm over the trails. They may upgrade one to a road. Big deal. Take another trail.
      Resident Australian, proving being a grumpy old man is not just an American trait.

    • OzJacko wrote:

      But if they build a hut that's not hogging campsites.
      The AMC can rip off the well funded without you needing to concern yourself over it.
      They will keep building. They have a budget that needs to be spent every year. The problem is the whites is becoming a very expensive place to hike. I could not afford to take my family there but have to pay taxes to build this crap.
      Sometimes you will never know the value of a moment until it becomes a memory.
      Dr. Seuss Cof123

    • But don't they spend their own money, not tax money.
      Don't get me wrong, I have a strong dislike for the AMC but I don't see much of an issue here.
      My biggest dislike with the AMC was being expected to pay for a campsite with no potable water. I considered that criminal but maybe that's because as an Aussie I have definite views about a person's right to drinking water.
      Resident Australian, proving being a grumpy old man is not just an American trait.

    • No Oz, this isn't only about cost of use, it's about encroachment on a beautiful environment. Sure, there's already infrastructure in Crawford Notch. But why expand? What's the stopping point? The AMC has pursued this location in part because the Forest Service will never grant a special use permit for construction on national forest land. This is exemplified by Wild Cat ski area's efforts to expand over the years.

      The Whites are my home. They are heavily used and often visited. Efforts should be made to mitigate impact, erosion, and to teach LNT and conservation, not increase our footprint. Given the impact of our short history in the area, a couple of hundred years, we have a great responsibility to preserve what we can for future generations.

    • Haunted Hotel History

      The story of the Stanley Hotel extends back through pre-history when the Estes Valley was a wild and lonely parkland, visited from time to time by wandering tribes of Ute and Arapaho. When early settlers arrived, they stayed because, here on the frontier, they could be truly free.The Earl of Dunraven came in 1872 and jealously coveted this “sportsman’s paradise” of rushing streams and peaceful meadows alive with fish and game. Dunraven sought to possess the valley and create a private hunting preserve. However, his claims were disputed and, as more and more Americans were drawn by the natural beauty of Estes Park, he began to realize that this dream could never be. In 1903, the Yankee inventor Freelan Oscar Stanley arrived, weak and underweight from the symptoms of consumption.
      One season spent in the refreshing climate of the wild valley was enough to restore his health to a formidable vigor, and he vowed to return each summer for the rest of his life. However, he and his wife Flora were used to the sophistication of East Coast society and the little community of Estes Park offered little to stimulate and challenge this multi-talented genius. They resolved to build a beautiful grand hotel, the likes of which might only be found in the resorts of the wealthy. Management of such an establishment, they thought, would provide all the diversion they desired. When the Stanley Hotel opened in 1909, the first guests, who pulled up in stylish Stanley-designed steam cars, were astonished. Here in this mountain wilderness, surrounded by the rustic haunts of the hunter and homesteader, was an edifice that withstood comparison with the posh-est hotels “back east.” Electric lights, telephones, en suite bathrooms, a staff of uniformed servants and a fleet of automobiles were at their disposal. Naturally, Stanley had also done much to develop the burgeoning town. By 1917, it was an official municipality with water-works, a power plant, and civic organizations that were all, in some way, thanks to Stanley.
      His friendship with naturalist Enos Mills was forged by his tireless efforts towards the creation of the Rocky Mountain National Park, perhaps his most lasting legacy. Flora Stanley played no small part. Everything Freelan did was because of his devotion to Flora. Despite her failing eyesight, she worked among the local ladies’ organizations to help her husband accomplish his projects. By the 1970s the hotel’s splendor had faded and it had gained a reputation for being haunted. It might have continued to fade and eventually have succumbed to the wrecking ball, if not for a fortuitous visit by author Stephen King. A stay of one night was enough to inspire his third major work and first hard-cover bestseller – The Shining – which remains a landmark masterpiece in a long and well-known list of novels. More recently, the Stanley’s paranormal past has been fully embraced. After a century of collecting spirits, the hotel has become renowned by specialists and experts in the field of paranormal investigation as one of the nation’s most active sites. Chief amongst the hotel’s eternal guests are F.O. and Flora Stanley who continue to go about the business of running their beloved establishment as though they were still alive; Flora’s antique Steinway can be heard playing in the dead of night and Mr. Stanley has been captured in photographs surveying the goings-on in the Billiards Room, once his favorite place.
      The hotel stands today as a beautifully-restored testament to its glory days, when it served as a holiday retreat for wealthy urbanites. A range of tours highlights the history and haunting of this magnificent historical structure while a tempting menu of amenities, culinary experiences and lavish spa treatments provides all the comfort and glamour required by even the most discerning of modern visitors. We invite you partake in all the Stanley has to offer and hope that, when you visit, you will be able to feel the mantle of time slip away and see the hotel as it once was.
      - See more at: stanleyhotel.com/hauntedhistory#sthash.Goq1zmMB.dpuf

    • Chris Magness wrote:

      Yes, plenty will pay. But many more can't pay. AMC huts cater to a very, very small percentage of forest users.

      The AMC's sale's pitch for the Highland Center was identical to that of Sparkling Cascade: increased access and learning. With close proximity of two other huts, and frequent vacancies at the Highland Center, and scores of hotels, motels, and B&B's throughout the White Mountain region, a new hut simply isn't needed. Furthermore, what's next? Where does development stop? The Highland Center and this new hut set a precedent for further construction. I live here. I want my forests to be left wooded and raw. As far as access is concerned, there are a plethora of short, simple trails throughout Crawford Notch, and throughout the WMNF.

      And if this project were to move foreword, shouldn't the lease be opened to bid? Why the AMC and not the RMC? Or a private B&B? Or Attitash Resorts? Or Motel 6?

      My opinion would perhaps be different if the cost of an AMC hut overnight were less, perhaps a $10 or $20 donation. The AMC has wandered far off it's course of forest stewardship.

      AMC huts do very little to support local economy. In fact, the detract from it. Every user night at a hut is one less night at a local hotel and one less meal at a local restaurant.
      the flip side to that is that it gives access to parts of the whites that wouldnt otherwise be accessible to many people, as well as the educational angle.i have to read more about it before i can say no.

      socks wrote:

      Haunted Hotel History

      The story of the Stanley Hotel extends back through pre-history when the Estes Valley was a wild and lonely parkland, visited from time to time by wandering tribes of Ute and Arapaho. When early settlers arrived, they stayed because, here on the frontier, they could be truly free.The Earl of Dunraven came in 1872 and jealously coveted this “sportsman’s paradise” of rushing streams and peaceful meadows alive with fish and game. Dunraven sought to possess the valley and create a private hunting preserve. However, his claims were disputed and, as more and more Americans were drawn by the natural beauty of Estes Park, he began to realize that this dream could never be. In 1903, the Yankee inventor Freelan Oscar Stanley arrived, weak and underweight from the symptoms of consumption.
      One season spent in the refreshing climate of the wild valley was enough to restore his health to a formidable vigor, and he vowed to return each summer for the rest of his life. However, he and his wife Flora were used to the sophistication of East Coast society and the little community of Estes Park offered little to stimulate and challenge this multi-talented genius. They resolved to build a beautiful grand hotel, the likes of which might only be found in the resorts of the wealthy. Management of such an establishment, they thought, would provide all the diversion they desired. When the Stanley Hotel opened in 1909, the first guests, who pulled up in stylish Stanley-designed steam cars, were astonished. Here in this mountain wilderness, surrounded by the rustic haunts of the hunter and homesteader, was an edifice that withstood comparison with the posh-est hotels “back east.” Electric lights, telephones, en suite bathrooms, a staff of uniformed servants and a fleet of automobiles were at their disposal. Naturally, Stanley had also done much to develop the burgeoning town. By 1917, it was an official municipality with water-works, a power plant, and civic organizations that were all, in some way, thanks to Stanley.
      His friendship with naturalist Enos Mills was forged by his tireless efforts towards the creation of the Rocky Mountain National Park, perhaps his most lasting legacy. Flora Stanley played no small part. Everything Freelan did was because of his devotion to Flora. Despite her failing eyesight, she worked among the local ladies’ organizations to help her husband accomplish his projects. By the 1970s the hotel’s splendor had faded and it had gained a reputation for being haunted. It might have continued to fade and eventually have succumbed to the wrecking ball, if not for a fortuitous visit by author Stephen King. A stay of one night was enough to inspire his third major work and first hard-cover bestseller – The Shining – which remains a landmark masterpiece in a long and well-known list of novels. More recently, the Stanley’s paranormal past has been fully embraced. After a century of collecting spirits, the hotel has become renowned by specialists and experts in the field of paranormal investigation as one of the nation’s most active sites. Chief amongst the hotel’s eternal guests are F.O. and Flora Stanley who continue to go about the business of running their beloved establishment as though they were still alive; Flora’s antique Steinway can be heard playing in the dead of night and Mr. Stanley has been captured in photographs surveying the goings-on in the Billiards Room, once his favorite place.
      The hotel stands today as a beautifully-restored testament to its glory days, when it served as a holiday retreat for wealthy urbanites. A range of tours highlights the history and haunting of this magnificent historical structure while a tempting menu of amenities, culinary experiences and lavish spa treatments provides all the comfort and glamour required by even the most discerning of modern visitors. We invite you partake in all the Stanley has to offer and hope that, when you visit, you will be able to feel the mantle of time slip away and see the hotel as it once was.
      - See more at: stanleyhotel.com/hauntedhistory#sthash.Goq1zmMB.dpuf
      i appreciate thread drift as much as the next guy, but what does this have to do with the discussion? this deserves its own thread
      its all good

    • OzJacko wrote:

      But don't they spend their own money, not tax money.
      Don't get me wrong, I have a strong dislike for the AMC but I don't see much of an issue here.
      My biggest dislike with the AMC was being expected to pay for a campsite with no potable water. I considered that criminal but maybe that's because as an Aussie I have definite views about a person's right to drinking water.
      They spend tax money. These quasi private public entities almost always mix funds. Too often they omit the long term benefits packages from their books because those fall under an entirely different department. The last time I looked the national forest system was being supported by the tax payers from all income levels. Building more very expensive accommodations is the last thing the whites need. Just because there are enough wealthy or well off people to support another $80 per night per person rooming lodge doesn't mean that it should be built.
      Sometimes you will never know the value of a moment until it becomes a memory.
      Dr. Seuss Cof123

    • hikerboy wrote:

      Rasty wrote:

      you need to prioritize. you complain about pennies when we're being swindled by the trillions
      Your right. We should never have lost 10 billion bailing out GM. PooFan

      I'm not complaining about the tax support of the AMC. I'm concerned that the AMC only wants those that are well off to be camping along certain parts of the AT. Many people including myself cannot take my family to the whites because it's too expensive to legally camp on the AT there.
      Sometimes you will never know the value of a moment until it becomes a memory.
      Dr. Seuss Cof123

    • Rasty wrote:

      hikerboy wrote:

      Rasty wrote:

      you need to prioritize. you complain about pennies when we're being swindled by the trillions
      Your right. We should never have lost 10 billion bailing out GM. PooFan
      I'm not complaining about the tax support of the AMC. I'm concerned that the AMC only wants those that are well off to be camping along certain parts of the AT. Many people including myself cannot take my family to the whites because it's too expensive to legally camp on the AT there.
      thats simply not true.
      its all good